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  1. #11
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    You could also choose an EP/EJ/IP/IJ system. I believe that some people already do that.
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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    SCUAI - 7w8 sx/sp - Chaotic Evil - Fucking Cute - ALIVE

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    If you don't agree about my MBTI type, you can complain about it here. I've had plenty of people telling me I'm something else, in my reputation box. That's annoying.

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The temperaments are sorted in such a way that make perfect sense in Keirsey's system. If you do not agree that the way Keirsey defines each type is the correct way, then you obviously will not agree with how he sorts his temperaments. NTs are together because they all use abstract language and exhibit utilitarian tool usage. As a contrast, all SPs use concrete language and utilitarian tool usage, not just STs. NFs and SJs all exhibit cooperative tendencies in regards to groups and problems. That's why they're sorted in such a way. Not because the letters match up.

    I think it was a mistake for Keirsey to use MBTI terminology with his system, because it leads to exactly this kind of confusion.
    Yes, exactly.

    That's what the article I linked talks about. He's essentially deviated from MBTI. We're not talking about the same system anymore.

    MBTI temperaments are NT, NF, ST, and SF, technically. That seems more symmetrical, and it kind of shows you what they're focusing on. It doesn't seem to be claiming that there's a fundamental difference between the NT nature and the NF nature, so much as merely emphasizing that there's a "cold/rational" and a "warm/caring" version of those who use each perceiving process. Keirsey makes less sense because he acts like there are fundamental archetypes at work that create a huge, ineffable chasm between the four different kinds of people, and that these forces are not affected by cognitive functions.

    I personally don't think the NT vs NF thing really adds up to more than the sum of it's parts... the letters T and F. I don't think there's anything more fundamental about it that goes beyond the basic differences you would expect to find between T and F types. Grouping sensors differently implies that there is...

  3. #13
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I am sorry Jesus but this is not exactly a new idea. (if you already don't know that)

  4. #14
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Good point YLJ! I think this is an exciting topic to think about. I browsed some previous posts about some related topics. I found a few.. (one from IntpC)


    Division of the type? [Archive] - Typology Central

    Grouping MBTI Types [Archive] - INTP Central

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ntp-types.html

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-16-types.html

    Discussion in some of the threads showed a feeling of different kind of likeness within different kinds of groups.

    For example, in the last thread, Hap gave this analysis of the types divided by your suggested structure:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    SJ -- the world is unstable, but I have the method to order it

    NJ -- the world is chaotic, but I have insight to carry me through

    NP -- the world has order, I just have to find it

    SP -- the world exists, innit that great?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Once again, everyone, Keirsey did not just cobble arbitrary letters together; he mapped a pre-existing system to the MBTI (and the Fudjack article doesn't seem to realize this either). The system had it's own symmetrical framework, which differed from MBTI. Hence, the partial symmetry of the mapping.
    Basically, he used a version of ancient temperament theory, which was filtered through Kretschmer's Character Styles. (Hypomanic, Depressive, Hyperesthetic, Anasthetic). The first two were Cyclothymes, and matched S, and as "gay vs. sad", differed by J/P. The latter two were Schizothymes and matched N, but as "sensitive vs. cold" differed by T/F.

    The article creates a good analogy:

    To each of the letters involved, we will assign another concrete meaning, in the following way -

    F= fat
    T= skinny
    N= female
    S= male
    J= poor
    P= rich

    When we do this, we can see that whereas the MBTI grouping is rather like saying,
    There are four types of people - fat men (SF), skinny men (ST), fat women (NF) and skinny women (NT)
    The Keirsey grouping is equivalent to saying,
    There are four types of people - fat women (NF), skinny women (NT), rich males (SP) and poor males (SJ)
    Two of the groups look totally irrelevant to the others. But what Keirsey had in effect done was take an old observation. (And it's funny how close to reality this is!) Women are judged by their looks, not their wealth (especially when in the past, most of their identity outside of looks was tied to the man anyway). Men are judged by their achievements, including wealth. It doesn't matter whether they are fat or skinny. So let's say in social constructs, these are what are looked at, and you have four asymmetrical groups. What ties these scales together is a scale of good vs bad. Fat women and poor men are seen as failures. Skinny women and rich men are sucesses. Hence, the old system did have its own symmetry.
    Someone later comes around and identifes four dichotomies measuring fat vs skinny and rich vs poor across the board, creating a new symmetry, and ignores the good/bad scale. Yet one person focuses on the old four groups, and maps them partially to the four across the board scales.

    Fudjack later goes into "opposites". Like SJ and NT being opposites. They are according to Keirsey's system, but this is where Berens system comes in handy. For SJ and NT do share something in common called "Structure focus". And NF and SP share "Motive focus". In the way I correlate these groups with the ancient temperaments, this new factor is more important than S/N, which ties together opposites in the old Galen system. Hence, the true opposites would be those sharing the same perception code. Like SP vs SJ. Even though both are S, still, P and J are in fact opposites in the MBTI system, so these are more logical opposites than SJ and NT, where S and N are opposite, but J and T are neither opposite, nor a common anchor in the symmetry like S is in SJ/SP. Likewise for NT vs NF. F and T are opposites.

    As for replacing NT and NF with NJ and NP, what you have then are simply "perception attitudes". And yes, they are meaningful disinctions in the types. But then, you also have the judging attitudes as someone mentioned: TJ, TP, FJ, FP, and of course, the original function preference pairs: ST, SF, NT, NF. Apparently, Keirsey identifid the "core needs" of temperament in the former Kretschmer groups rather than these letter pairs, and he came to reject the cognitive functions anyway, so two of those symmetrical groups were irrelevant anyway, except on the S side where they corresponded to two of the temperaments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Interesting. I had never heard of this before. I don't see how an ESFP is any less fond of cooperative tendencies than an ENFP though (as an example):
    That originally threw me off too. But ESFP and ENFP are both Informative, and Motive focused, which both mean very people (rather than task) focused. Cooperative vs utilitarian sounds like the same kind of thing, but it is really more about action. Cooperatives do "what's right", while utilitarians do "what works". So utilitarians will tend to be quicker to act, while cooperatives will more likely seek permission first. So to me, C/U is sort of like the "introversion/extroversion" of Keirsey's temperaments. (The real I/E are apart of the Interaction Styles, which are a different area of temperament).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #16
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Keirsey's temperaments are mostly garbage, especially NF and NT. NTPs are dramatically different from NTJs; in fact, we're more similar to STPs than we are to them.

    The same holds true for NFPs; they're much closer to SFP than they are to NFJ so the whole idea of NT and NF temperaments is dumb.

    NJ/NP/SJ/SP works a little bit better but is still inferior because those are just rehashings of the four perceiving functions:

    NJ = Ni
    NP = Ne
    SJ = Si
    SP = Se


    imho, the best temperament divisions, if any exist at all, are EP/IP/EJ/IJ.

    Note that these describe functional attitudes rather than the functions themselves. If we divide them according to use of extroverted Judgment (Je, meaning Te/Fe), introverted Judgment (Ji, or Ti/Fi), extroverted Perception (Pe, or Ne/Se) and introverted Perception (Pi, or Ni/Si), we get much more useful temperaments because we see similar life attitudes and approaches to learning:

    EPs all have dominant Pe, secondary Ji, tertiary Je, and inferior Pi. They favor a hands-on, direct experiential and exploratory approach to learning that operates by leaping right in and figuring things out through direct experimentation with the external environment, and then using these experiences to formulate internal rule systems by which future data will be evaluated.

    IPs are Ji, Pe, Pi, Je. They work best by forming a consistent internal set of principles through careful consideration, and then experimenting externally to see when and where these principles may be applied most effectively.

    EJs are Je, Pi, Pe, Ji. They operate by organizing and controlling the external environment and other people first, then by turning inward to reconsider and reevaluate different viewpoints and philosophies on which these decisions are made.

    IJs are Pi, Je, Ji, Pe. They depend upon contemplation of abstract internal vision which is then used to make a plan for organizing the outer world into useful constructs for completing their goals.

    If you think about it you'll see that these divisions represent a lot more attitudinal similarities than do NP/NJ/SP/SJ, because those only describe the perceiving function--these describe overall life philosophy/learning style in much greater depth.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #17
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    I think at the heart of me, I am an idealist, so NF temperament works. The I and J do change things up a bit, but I can see where the NJ/NP divisions wouldn't work either. I think I have more in common with some INFPs than ENTJs, for example. Other than being focused and structured, I think we are completely different in outlook; ENTJs being practical and me being idealistic. But then again I have more in common with INTJ than possibly any other type.

  8. #18
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Aww, crap I always reinvent the wheel

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  9. #19
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Aww, crap I always reinvent the wheel
    Well, you actually did good. You said it succinctly enough that you didn't confuse people. I tend to write things like that, when I think of them, in a really elaborate, complex manner that people tend to ignore and dislike (unless they're really bored, geeky INTPs, then they seem to love it).

    Most of the people who brought it up previously weren't so obvious or clear about it.

  10. #20
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, you actually did good. You said it succinctly enough that you didn't confuse people. I tend to write things like that, when I think of them, in a really elaborate, complex manner that people tend to ignore and dislike (unless they're really bored, geeky INTPs, then they seem to love it).

    Most of the people who brought it up previously weren't so obvious or clear about it.
    It's kinda the point of ENTJs, I believe.
    And thank you kindly.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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