ISTPs enneagram

[Oom]

Yeah, 9s and 5s always seem to mistype as each other, so it would make sense if many of them shared an MBTI type.

Why would 5s and 9s get mixed up with each other? There don't seem to be that many similarities between those two types. Maybe they are peaceful thinkers.

 

[Ruthie]

Why would 5s and 9s get mixed up with each other? There don't seem to be that many similarities between those two types. Maybe they are peaceful thinkers.

I think mostly the introversion.

 

[tetsuwanatom]

Why would 5s and 9s get mixed up with each other? There don't seem to be that many similarities between those two types. Maybe they are peaceful thinkers.

I think it's not exactly 9 and 5 that get mixed up with each other, but mostly 9w1 that gets mixed up 5.

9w8s - sensual, firmly grounded in their bodies; emphasis on physical comforts; generally easy going but with a volcanic and expansive anger when forced by others to leave their comfort-zone
9w1s - idealistic, cerebral; can resemble E5s; emphasis on (day-) dreams of union and harmony; willing to repress and/or ignore many negative impulses in self and others but react with an indignant anger towards those who are perceived to be ruining the peace

http://http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/FORUM/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11018

 

[tetsuwanatom]

I don't think there's an obvious correlation between 9s and F/T. Most 9s I know are IxxP, with the middle two completely up for grabs.

Maybe there's a T/F split based on wing, but I don't really know how that would break down: on one hand, I would think 9w1 would lean F (the whole "idealist" "dreamer" thing) while 9w8 could lean T ("realist"). On the other hand, 9w8 seems to be more of a gut-response type - possible F? - and isn't exactly known for thinking through decisions much at all. 9w1 probably makes decisions in a more orderly way.

Of course, reading through a description of 9w8 sure does match the description of ISTP...

Hmm... i would think that a 9w1 would be an istp that has a very dominant Ti (and maybe even Ni??), whereas a 9w8 might be an istp with a pretty strong Se function (even though Ti will still be pretty dominant).

Both are definitely gut-response types, but 9w8 is associated with the more general associations of "gut-response" and I think this is because of the nature of Se----the function that responds and changes continuously to the external.

I don't think F would play a part in this though...

 

[Ruthie]

I think it's not exactly 9 and 5 that get mixed up with each other, but mostly 9w1 that gets mixed up 5.


http://http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/FORUM/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11018

OK, this is anecdotal, but it seems that a disproportionate number of people who take the enneagram test (or are generally interested in personality theory) test 4, 5, or 9w1. I don't know if it's because those types are usually more introspective, and therefore more drawn to personality theory, or that those are the types that have descriptions that make them sound especially unique or gifted (as opposed to the 9w8, which sounds kinda dense in most of the descriptions).

Either way, an introvert who takes the test would likely score high on both 9 and 5, and when reading the descriptions would probably relate more to either the 5 or the 9w1 (rather than the 9w8).

I guess my point is, couldn't it just be that:

a) both 9s and 5s are introverts
b) an introverted test-taker would likely have high scores for 5 and 9
c) most test-takers are interested in personality theory - that's why they take the test
d) 9s interested in personality theory are more likely to self-type as 9w1 over 9w8
e) the introverted test-taker will identify with 5 or 9w1

There just aren't enough self-ID'd 9w8s out there for me to write them out of the "mistyped as 5" thingamajig.

 

[tetsuwanatom]

OK, this is anecdotal, but it seems that a disproportionate number of people who take the enneagram test (or are generally interested in personality theory) test 4, 5, or 9w1. I don't know if it's because those types are usually more introspective, and therefore more drawn to personality theory, or that those are the types that have descriptions that make them sound especially unique or gifted (as opposed to the 9w8, which sounds kinda dense in most of the descriptions).

Either way, an introvert who takes the test would likely score high on both 9 and 5, and when reading the descriptions would probably relate more to either the 5 or the 9w1 (rather than the 9w8).

I guess my point is, couldn't it just be that:

a) both 9s and 5s are introverts
b) an introverted test-taker would likely have high scores for 5 and 9
c) most test-takers are interested in personality theory - that's why they take the test
d) 9s interested in personality theory are more likely to self-type as 9w1 over 9w8
e) the introverted test-taker will identify with 5 or 9w1

There just aren't enough self-ID'd 9w8s out there for me to write them out of the "mistyped as 5" thingamajig.

I would say I have high levels of introversion but I have never scored a 5 before.
Also, I think enneagrams are easier to self-identify (the main numbers anyway) without taking a test. To be honest, I have only taken 1 enneagram test (Fauvre's test when they distributed the free code on the enneagram forum: Enneagram Test & Instinctual Subtype Tests by Chernick-Fauvre & Fauvre), where I scored highest for the gut centre (with E9) and then the head (E7) and the heart (E3)---and also I scored higher for the w1 than w8.

To be fair, I would say 9s mistype themselves a lot, and this is more to do with issues of having an authentic identity (but not in the sense of E4's) due to their tendency to be unaware and their issues with denial and repression (especially when it's coupled with w1). 9's desire for inner harmony can also mislead them to be accommodating to their immediate environment---so they merge more with whoever they strongly admire and "take on" that person's number.

I think a 9w8 person would not be easily mistyped as a 5, but 9w1 yes.

Anyway, here's about mistyping 9 and 5:

A detailed comparison and contrast between Fives and Nines is warranted because so many Nines mistakenly think that they are Fives; typically, the misidentification almost never happens the other way around. Particularly if they are well educated and intelligent, average male Nines tend to think that they are Fives. (As noted in the discussion of Twos, average female Nines tend to think that they are Twos.)

Of all the personality types, Nines have the most difficulty identifying which type they are because their sense of self is undefined. Average Nines have little sense of who they are apart from those they have identified with; hence, they are usually at a loss to know where to begin to find their type. (As we have seen, either they think they are Fives or Twos or they see a little of themselves in all the types and make no further effort at identifying themselves. If they have no guidance, Nines in this predicament usually shrug their shoulders and give up on the Enneagram and more important, on acquiring self-knowledge.)

Even relatively healthy Nines still have a somewhat diffused sense of self because it is based on their capacity to be receptive to others—and to be unself-conscious. Moreover, average Nines have problems identifying their type because doing so arouses anxiety, something completely anathema to them. Whatever disturbs their peace of mind is ignored or met with a blind eye. They avoid introspection in favor of entertaining comforting notions about themselves, whatever they may be. Maintaining an undefined understanding of themselves, and thus, maintaining their emotional comfort, is more important to average Nines than acquiring deeper insights.

None of this is true of Fives, and the two types are opposites in many ways. Nines are gentle, easygoing, patient, receptive, and accommodating, whereas Fives are intense, strong-minded, argumentative, contentious, and highly resistant to the influence of others. Nines like people and trust them; perhaps at times they are too trusting. By contrast, average Fives are suspicious of people and are anything but trusting, perhaps at times too cynical and resistant. Both types are among the three withdrawn types of the Enneagram, and (as we have seen with Fours and Nines), there are genuine similarities between them, although only superficial ones (PT, 433-36).

Despite their similarities, the main point of confusion for Nines arises around the notion of "thinking." Nines think they are Fives because they think they have profound ideas: therefore, they must be Fives.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that individuals of both types can be highly intelligent, although as a group Fives are probably the most intelligent of the nine personality types. (When Nines are highly intelligent, they can be as brilliant as Fives, although their intellectual prowess is compartmentalized. They are brilliant at work but unfocused and inattentive everywhere else, whereas Fives are focused and attentive everywhere all the time.) Although intelligence can be manifested in different ways, being intelligent does not make Nines intellectuals, just as thinking does not make them thinkers. As we have seen, the pattern as a whole (and the motivations) must be taken into consideration, not one or two traits in isolation. Since all the types think in one way or another, thinking alone, with no further distinction, is not a sufficient basis for a personality diagnosis.

The fundamental difference between the thinking of Nines and that of Fives is that Nines are impressionistic, involved with generalities, imaginative ruminations, and fanciful situations. Nines typically do not concern themselves with details, nor are they usually good at following up once they have acted. By contrast, the thinking of Fives is highly focused, penetrating, and almost microscopic in the narrowness of its frame of reference. Fives love details, losing themselves in research, scholarship, and complex intellectual pursuits. They think in depth, concentrating so much that they block out other perceptions (eventually to their detriment). By contrast, even brilliant Nines tend to have problems concentrating; they also tend to lose interest quickly and to allow their attention to drift off when they become bored or anxious.

Nines tend to spin grand, sweeping, idealistic solutions to problems, while Fives tend to speculate on problems, then on the problems that their problems have raised, then on those problems, ad infinitum. Nines may be gifted storytellers, able to communicate simply and effectively to others, even to children. Fives usually communicate to only a few or keep their ideas entirely to themselves. (Moreover, their ideas may be so complicated that they are difficult to communicate to all but other specialists.) Nines usually do not consider the consequences of their actions; Fives are extremely interested in predicting the consequences of every action. Nines idealize the world and create imaginary worlds in which good always triumphs over evil; Fives analyze the real world and create horrifying scenarios in which evil usually triumphs over good or exists in tension with it. Nines simplify; Fives complexify. Nines look to the past; Fives to the future. Nines are fantasists; Fives are theorists. Nines are disengaged; Fives are detached. Nines are utopians; Fives are nihilists. Nines are optimists; Fives are pessimists. Nines are open; Fives are resistant. Nines are non-threatening and nonjudgmental; Fives are defensive and contentious. Nines are at peace; Fives are in tension. Nines end in dissociation; Fives in paranoia.

Comparisons and contrasts such as these could be multiplied almost indefinitely because, while these two types are such opposites, they are also paradoxically similar. What they have in common is the tendency to ask "What if?" questions. The difference is in their response: Nines tend to ruminate on their fantasies, while Fives attempt to see if their ideas could come true. The Nine's ideas usually involve a single insight that, while true enough, is often impractical and goes nowhere. For instance, a Nine may think that the way to world peace is "for everyone to love one another." While this is doubtlessly true, the problem not addressed is how to get everyone to love one another. A Five wondering about the same problem would write a treatise on world peace after doing exhaustive historical research, eventually erecting a grand theory of peace. (The Five's ideas may also come to nothing, but at least they are pursued, and practical results may eventually come of them.) To give another example, a Nine might wonder what it is like to fly and make up a story about it. A Five might wonder how to fly and invent an airplane or do research on birds or design a rocket.

In short, Nines have an active fantasy life and think that they have deep thoughts. Sometimes they do, of course, although the thinking of intelligent, well-educated Nines tends to be in the direction of simplifying reality and cutting through abstruse thickets to get at the kernel of truth beneath. Nines tend to see things the way they want them to be; they reinterpret reality to make it more comforting and less threatening, simpler and less daunting. By contrast, the thinking of Fives is complex. By attempting to arrive at a grand unifying theory that encompasses and explains everything, average Fives end up involved in increasing complications and abstractions. Their thought is focused on specifics, often highly technical and concerned with foresight and the consequences of acting one way rather than another. But at an extreme, Fives risk seeing reality not as it is but as a projection of their preoccupations and fears. They distort their perceptions of reality so that reality seems more negative and threatening than it actually is.

Nines feel at ease in the world, and their style of thinking reflects their unconscious desire to merge with the world. Fives are afraid of being overwhelmed by the world, and their intellectual efforts are an unconscious defense against the world, an attempt to master it intellectually. There is a world of difference between these two types since they see the world so differently. Compare Charles Darwin (a Five) and Walt Disney (a Nine), Albert Einstein (a Five) and Jim Henson (a Nine) to understand the similarities and differences between these two types more clearly.

The Enneagram Institute: Members Section

Large doses of salt required though

 

[Poki]

I would say I have high levels of introversion but I have never scored a 5 before.
Also, I think enneagrams are easier to self-identify (the main numbers anyway) without taking a test. To be honest, I have only taken 1 enneagram test (Fauvre's test when they distributed the free code on the enneagram forum: Enneagram Test & Instinctual Subtype Tests by Chernick-Fauvre & Fauvre), where I scored highest for the gut centre (with E9) and then the head (E7) and the heart (E3)---and also I scored higher for the w1 than w8.

To be fair, I would say 9s mistype themselves a lot, and this is more to do with issues of having an authentic identity (but not in the sense of E4's) due to their tendency to be unaware and their issues with denial and repression (especially when it's coupled with w1). 9's desire for inner harmony can also mislead them to be accommodating to their immediate environment---so they merge more with whoever they strongly admire and "take on" that person's number.

I think a 9w8 person would not be easily mistyped as a 5, but 9w1 yes.

Anyway, here's about mistyping 9 and 5:

The Enneagram Institute: Members Section

Large doses of salt required though

Thanks, that pegs me as 9w1 for sure and is why I think I feel more like an ESTP.

Here are the points that really hit me

gentle, easygoing, patient, receptive, and accommodating

Nines are impressionistic, involved with generalities, imaginative ruminations, and fanciful situations. Nines typically do not concern themselves with details, nor are they usually good at following up once they have acted

Nines simplify; Fives complexify. Nines look to the past; Fives to the future. Nines are fantasists; Fives are theorists. Nines are disengaged; Fives are detached. Nines are utopians; Fives are nihilists. Nines are optimists; Fives are pessimists. Nines are open; Fives are resistant. Nines are non-threatening and nonjudgmental; Fives are defensive and contentious. Nines are at peace; Fives are in tension. Nines end in dissociation; Fives in paranoia.

Nines have an active fantasy life and think that they have deep thoughts. Sometimes they do, of course, although the thinking of intelligent, well-educated Nines tends to be in the direction of simplifying reality and cutting through abstruse thickets to get at the kernel of truth beneath. Nines tend to see things the way they want them to be; they reinterpret reality to make it more comforting and less threatening, simpler and less daunting.

 

[Kingfisher]

tetsuwanatom, thanks for the info about mistyping.

the basic motivations and drives for a 5 and a 9 are pretty different. maybe we can tend to look similar on the surface when you are just looking at behaviors and not the underlying motivations.
maybe a 5 could talk a little about what motivates them? my understanding is that learning and acquiring knowledge, analyzing how and why everything works, understanding how the world works, are big motivations for 5's.

i really agree a lot with the stuff that poki has posted.
these 2 especially are big motivations in my life:

being awake versus falling asleep to our true nature

Nines simplify

 

[Poki]

Nines simplify; Fives complexify. Nines look to the past; Fives to the future. Nines are fantasists; Fives are theorists. Nines are disengaged; Fives are detached. Nines are utopians; Fives are nihilists. Nines are optimists; Fives are pessimists. Nines are open; Fives are resistant. Nines are non-threatening and nonjudgmental; Fives are defensive and contentious. Nines are at peace; Fives are in tension. Nines end in dissociation; Fives in paranoia.

To me the five portion sounds like an SJ type. Could this be one of the reasons why ISTJ and ISTP in socionics dont align.

So what exactly is being myself? Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?

 

[Kingfisher]

So what exactly is being myself? Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?

haha, that is something i struggle with constantly.
my feeling generally is that "being myself" is about directly expressing myself, acting and expressing without any real thought, just letting my instincts and natural self guide my actions. so i think 'feeling free to do as we please' is a huge part of it, personal expression is a big part of "being myself". but also doing the right thing is a huge part. for me it is a feeling that i am in tune with myself and can express myself freely, but also that i am in tune with my morality - and ultimately acting and being true to myself by doing the right thing.

i think we are being 'ourselves' when we don't let our enviroment dictate our freedom. you asked "Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?" i am all about expressing myself, but i think the way we learn to be ourselves is by understanding that there are no real restrictions posed on us by the outside world. so when it feels like "i am not free to be myself" i think we need to realize that we are the one holding back from being ourself, and it is not really the enviroment limiting us. i mean, i think we are always free to be ourself at all times, no matter what kind of enviroment we are in. so it is not really as much about 'being free to express yourself', it is more about having the strength to express yourself when it does not seem like you are free to do so.

i mean, i think the real challenege is being in tune with yourself. so i think it is more a battle to become in tune with yourself, rather than already know yourself and battle at trying to express it.

 

[Poki]

haha, that is something i struggle with constantly.
my feeling generally is that "being myself" is about directly expressing myself, acting and expressing without any real thought, just letting my instincts and natural self guide my actions. so i think 'feeling free to do as we please' is a huge part of it, personal expression is a big part of "being myself". but also doing the right thing is a huge part. for me it is a feeling that i am in tune with myself and can express myself freely, but also that i am in tune with my morality - and ultimately acting and being true to myself by doing the right thing.

i think we are being 'ourselves' when we don't let our enviroment dictate our freedom. you asked "Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?" i am all about expressing myself, but i think the way we learn to be ourselves is by understanding that there are no real restrictions posed on us by the outside world. so when it feels like "i am not free to be myself" i think we need to realize that we are the one holding back from being ourself, and it is not really the enviroment limiting us. i mean, i think we are always free to be ourself at all times, no matter what kind of enviroment we are in. so it is not really as much about 'being free to express yourself', it is more about having the strength to express yourself when it does not seem like you are free to do so.

i mean, i think the real challenege is being in tune with yourself. so i think it is more a battle to become in tune with yourself, rather than already know yourself and battle at trying to express it.

Cops seem to do a pretty good job on imposing limits Thanks, next time see a worker at home depot I wont prematurely stop flat bed cart surfing Oh my wife is gonna hate this attitude So can I return to driving on sidewalks when a light backs up? Or that with the proper vehicle maintain the attitude "I dont need no stinkin roads!!!" I already embarass people since I frquently park half way on the curbs to maintain a better distance between me and the car parked next to me.

So our key is to push towards Se. I do see what your saying on imposing limits on ourself though.

edit..."I dont need no stinkin roads!!!" Service road this morning backed up far so I went through the grass to get on the highway instead of waiting for something people call "on ramps".

 

[Kingfisher]

haha, yeah i was talking in pretty idealistic terms.

day-to-day though, i for sure butt up against authority and have limitations put on me. that is the sad truth of reality; i know i should be able to do some things but that doesn't mean i can. or they don't make it easy for me to do things, anyway.

 

[Poki]

haha, yeah i was talking in pretty idealistic terms.

day-to-day though, i for sure butt up against authority and have limitations put on me. that is the sad truth of reality; i know i should be able to do some things but that doesn't mean i can. or they don't make it easy for me to do things, anyway.

I know the limitations I put on myself are more along the lines of what I am capable of. I dont like being thought of as better than other people. The limitations I put on myself follow along the lines of being a peacemaker. Its more I dont want to know what I am capable. So I try to raise others up so I can raise myself up.

Any other 9w1s relate to this?

 

[Poki]

I know the limitations I put on myself are more along the lines of what I am capable of. I dont like being thought of as better than other people. The limitations I put on myself follow along the lines of being a peacemaker. Its more I dont want to know what I am capable. So I try to raise others up so I can raise myself up.

Any other 9w1s relate to this?

Even after writing this I ended up wondering if some of the things I wrote are not true. I question that what I know is right or if its some made up crap. For some reason I cant believe that things I think can be real. I dont know, I will have to dive into this later. No im not having some nervous breakdown, just questioning myself from a detached point of view Time for some more Se just living for today.

If I do change who I am to accommodate each type, can anyone know who I really am? This is so confusing

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

^ get out of my head. Anyway. I've taken it and get 7. But 5 is super close behind.

 

[Poki]

^ get out of my head. Anyway. I've taken it and get 7. But 5 is super close behind.

Do you have an anger complex? You will do whatever possible to try to keep peace even if it means internally changing who you are?

My 2 complexes seem to be keeping anger within others at bay and not hurting others. I may use 7 to try to make jokes to kinda keep arguments more light hearted, kinda bringing in laughter to keep things from getting to far out of hand. If My parents bicker I will walk in and say "ok, children". It kinda turns it on me a little, but I wont argue so it helps to kill it before it gets out of hand. When it is me and another person I will give in at signs of fustration or do whatever it takes to maintain the peace. I will then try and talk about it at a later date after things have settled down. My P allows me to move on without things being settled and jump back into Se come back to it later.

I hate to see hurt in other people, whether I caused it or someone else caused it. I go into automatic protection mechanism for that person, even if I caused the hurt, whatever my feelings are they will change 180 degrees and go into sympathy or empathy mode(i get confused between the two). Even if the person I hurt gets mad at me I will still hit protection mode for that person.

This actually seems to cause marriage problems and we are gonna have to find a way around it. I hit protection mode for the person who gets hurt when I really care about both parties. It cause me to go up against my wife without even thinking about it. This happened the other night. My mom started in with my wife and I tried to be a peacemaker and my wife got into it with my mom and my mom backed down but both were pretty pissed. Well my son got drug into it by my wife(just by making him do something he didnt want to do that I saw no reason to do and he started to whine) and I went immediatley into protection mode for my son and up against my wife. Its not something I conciously do, its an automatic response. Well one of her complexes built on mine and things went down hill fast.

This seems to line up with the whole peacemaker role.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

^I just befriended you because of this post. I relate to this so much. It's not even funny.

 

[jixmixfix]

^ get out of my head. Anyway. I've taken it and get 7. But 5 is super close behind.

5's and 7's are contradictory though how are you close to 5? 7's prefer to be enthusiastic and engaging with people to avoid being stuck in their head. 5's are stuck in their head more suffer from an inferiority complex and are not engaging with people.

 

[jixmixfix]

Do you have an anger complex? You will do whatever possible to try to keep peace even if it means internally changing who you are?

My 2 complexes seem to be keeping anger within others at bay and not hurting others. I may use 7 to try to make jokes to kinda keep arguments more light hearted, kinda bringing in laughter to keep things from getting to far out of hand. If My parents bicker I will walk in and say "ok, children". It kinda turns it on me a little, but I wont argue so it helps to kill it before it gets out of hand. When it is me and another person I will give in at signs of fustration or do whatever it takes to maintain the peace. I will then try and talk about it at a later date after things have settled down. My P allows me to move on without things being settled and jump back into Se come back to it later.

I hate to see hurt in other people, whether I caused it or someone else caused it. I go into automatic protection mechanism for that person, even if I caused the hurt, whatever my feelings are they will change 180 degrees and go into sympathy or empathy mode(i get confused between the two). Even if the person I hurt gets mad at me I will still hit protection mode for that person.

This actually seems to cause marriage problems and we are gonna have to find a way around it. I hit protection mode for the person who gets hurt when I really care about both parties. It cause me to go up against my wife without even thinking about it. This happened the other night. My mom started in with my wife and I tried to be a peacemaker and my wife got into it with my mom and my mom backed down but both were pretty pissed. Well my son got drug into it by my wife(just by making him do something he didnt want to do that I saw no reason to do and he started to whine) and I went immediatley into protection mode for my son and up against my wife. Its not something I conciously do, its an automatic response. Well one of her complexes built on mine and things went down hill fast.

This seems to line up with the whole peacemaker role.

I think this is common for most ISTPs to have, I have these traits of well of going into "protection mode". There is something about our personality that caters towards the "defensive" instead of "offensive". So even when problems arise to us we act defensively to solve them.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

5's and 7's are contradictory though how are you close to 5? 7's prefer to be enthusiastic and engaging with people to avoid being stuck in their head. 5's are stuck in their head more suffer from an inferiority complex and are not engaging with people.

Yup. I realize they are opposing. I don't know. Poki just mentioned that I look into 9w1 as I may be that. Since apparently, they can mimic 7's 5's...whatever.