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Thread: ISTPs enneagram

  1. #21
    Your time is gonna come. Oom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Yeah, 9s and 5s always seem to mistype as each other, so it would make sense if many of them shared an MBTI type.
    Why would 5s and 9s get mixed up with each other? There don't seem to be that many similarities between those two types. Maybe they are peaceful thinkers.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oom View Post
    Why would 5s and 9s get mixed up with each other? There don't seem to be that many similarities between those two types. Maybe they are peaceful thinkers.
    I think mostly the introversion.

  3. #23
    Member tetsuwanatom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oom View Post
    Why would 5s and 9s get mixed up with each other? There don't seem to be that many similarities between those two types. Maybe they are peaceful thinkers.
    I think it's not exactly 9 and 5 that get mixed up with each other, but mostly 9w1 that gets mixed up 5.

    9w8s - sensual, firmly grounded in their bodies; emphasis on physical comforts; generally easy going but with a volcanic and expansive anger when forced by others to leave their comfort-zone
    9w1s - idealistic, cerebral; can resemble E5s; emphasis on (day-) dreams of union and harmony; willing to repress and/or ignore many negative impulses in self and others but react with an indignant anger towards those who are perceived to be ruining the peace
    http://http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/FORUM/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11018

  4. #24
    Member tetsuwanatom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I don't think there's an obvious correlation between 9s and F/T. Most 9s I know are IxxP, with the middle two completely up for grabs.

    Maybe there's a T/F split based on wing, but I don't really know how that would break down: on one hand, I would think 9w1 would lean F (the whole "idealist" "dreamer" thing) while 9w8 could lean T ("realist"). On the other hand, 9w8 seems to be more of a gut-response type - possible F? - and isn't exactly known for thinking through decisions much at all. 9w1 probably makes decisions in a more orderly way.

    Of course, reading through a description of 9w8 sure does match the description of ISTP...
    Hmm... i would think that a 9w1 would be an istp that has a very dominant Ti (and maybe even Ni??), whereas a 9w8 might be an istp with a pretty strong Se function (even though Ti will still be pretty dominant).

    Both are definitely gut-response types, but 9w8 is associated with the more general associations of "gut-response" and I think this is because of the nature of Se----the function that responds and changes continuously to the external.

    I don't think F would play a part in this though...
    [Kierkegaard: either/or] At the moment of choice, he is at the point of consummation, for his personality is consummating itself, and yet at the same moment he is at the very beginning, because he is choosing himself according to his freedom. As a product he is squeezed into the forms of actuality; in the choice he makes himself elastic, transforms everything exterior into interiority. He has his place in the world; in freedom he chooses his place---that is, he chooses this place

  5. #25
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsuwanatom View Post
    I think it's not exactly 9 and 5 that get mixed up with each other, but mostly 9w1 that gets mixed up 5.


    http://http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/FORUM/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11018
    OK, this is anecdotal, but it seems that a disproportionate number of people who take the enneagram test (or are generally interested in personality theory) test 4, 5, or 9w1. I don't know if it's because those types are usually more introspective, and therefore more drawn to personality theory, or that those are the types that have descriptions that make them sound especially unique or gifted (as opposed to the 9w8, which sounds kinda dense in most of the descriptions).

    Either way, an introvert who takes the test would likely score high on both 9 and 5, and when reading the descriptions would probably relate more to either the 5 or the 9w1 (rather than the 9w8).

    I guess my point is, couldn't it just be that:

    a) both 9s and 5s are introverts
    b) an introverted test-taker would likely have high scores for 5 and 9
    c) most test-takers are interested in personality theory - that's why they take the test
    d) 9s interested in personality theory are more likely to self-type as 9w1 over 9w8
    e) the introverted test-taker will identify with 5 or 9w1

    There just aren't enough self-ID'd 9w8s out there for me to write them out of the "mistyped as 5" thingamajig.

  6. #26
    Member tetsuwanatom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    OK, this is anecdotal, but it seems that a disproportionate number of people who take the enneagram test (or are generally interested in personality theory) test 4, 5, or 9w1. I don't know if it's because those types are usually more introspective, and therefore more drawn to personality theory, or that those are the types that have descriptions that make them sound especially unique or gifted (as opposed to the 9w8, which sounds kinda dense in most of the descriptions).

    Either way, an introvert who takes the test would likely score high on both 9 and 5, and when reading the descriptions would probably relate more to either the 5 or the 9w1 (rather than the 9w8).

    I guess my point is, couldn't it just be that:

    a) both 9s and 5s are introverts
    b) an introverted test-taker would likely have high scores for 5 and 9
    c) most test-takers are interested in personality theory - that's why they take the test
    d) 9s interested in personality theory are more likely to self-type as 9w1 over 9w8
    e) the introverted test-taker will identify with 5 or 9w1

    There just aren't enough self-ID'd 9w8s out there for me to write them out of the "mistyped as 5" thingamajig.

    I would say I have high levels of introversion but I have never scored a 5 before.
    Also, I think enneagrams are easier to self-identify (the main numbers anyway) without taking a test. To be honest, I have only taken 1 enneagram test (Fauvre's test when they distributed the free code on the enneagram forum: Enneagram Test & Instinctual Subtype Tests by Chernick-Fauvre & Fauvre), where I scored highest for the gut centre (with E9) and then the head (E7) and the heart (E3)---and also I scored higher for the w1 than w8.

    To be fair, I would say 9s mistype themselves a lot, and this is more to do with issues of having an authentic identity (but not in the sense of E4's) due to their tendency to be unaware and their issues with denial and repression (especially when it's coupled with w1). 9's desire for inner harmony can also mislead them to be accommodating to their immediate environment---so they merge more with whoever they strongly admire and "take on" that person's number.

    I think a 9w8 person would not be easily mistyped as a 5, but 9w1 yes.

    Anyway, here's about mistyping 9 and 5:
    A detailed comparison and contrast between Fives and Nines is warranted because so many Nines mistakenly think that they are Fives; typically, the misidentification almost never happens the other way around. Particularly if they are well educated and intelligent, average male Nines tend to think that they are Fives. (As noted in the discussion of Twos, average female Nines tend to think that they are Twos.)

    Of all the personality types, Nines have the most difficulty identifying which type they are because their sense of self is undefined. Average Nines have little sense of who they are apart from those they have identified with; hence, they are usually at a loss to know where to begin to find their type. (As we have seen, either they think they are Fives or Twos or they see a little of themselves in all the types and make no further effort at identifying themselves. If they have no guidance, Nines in this predicament usually shrug their shoulders and give up on the Enneagram and more important, on acquiring self-knowledge.)

    Even relatively healthy Nines still have a somewhat diffused sense of self because it is based on their capacity to be receptive to others—and to be unself-conscious. Moreover, average Nines have problems identifying their type because doing so arouses anxiety, something completely anathema to them. Whatever disturbs their peace of mind is ignored or met with a blind eye. They avoid introspection in favor of entertaining comforting notions about themselves, whatever they may be. Maintaining an undefined understanding of themselves, and thus, maintaining their emotional comfort, is more important to average Nines than acquiring deeper insights.

    None of this is true of Fives, and the two types are opposites in many ways. Nines are gentle, easygoing, patient, receptive, and accommodating, whereas Fives are intense, strong-minded, argumentative, contentious, and highly resistant to the influence of others. Nines like people and trust them; perhaps at times they are too trusting. By contrast, average Fives are suspicious of people and are anything but trusting, perhaps at times too cynical and resistant. Both types are among the three withdrawn types of the Enneagram, and (as we have seen with Fours and Nines), there are genuine similarities between them, although only superficial ones (PT, 433-36).

    Despite their similarities, the main point of confusion for Nines arises around the notion of "thinking." Nines think they are Fives because they think they have profound ideas: therefore, they must be Fives.

    Part of the problem stems from the fact that individuals of both types can be highly intelligent, although as a group Fives are probably the most intelligent of the nine personality types. (When Nines are highly intelligent, they can be as brilliant as Fives, although their intellectual prowess is compartmentalized. They are brilliant at work but unfocused and inattentive everywhere else, whereas Fives are focused and attentive everywhere all the time.) Although intelligence can be manifested in different ways, being intelligent does not make Nines intellectuals, just as thinking does not make them thinkers. As we have seen, the pattern as a whole (and the motivations) must be taken into consideration, not one or two traits in isolation. Since all the types think in one way or another, thinking alone, with no further distinction, is not a sufficient basis for a personality diagnosis.

    The fundamental difference between the thinking of Nines and that of Fives is that Nines are impressionistic, involved with generalities, imaginative ruminations, and fanciful situations. Nines typically do not concern themselves with details, nor are they usually good at following up once they have acted. By contrast, the thinking of Fives is highly focused, penetrating, and almost microscopic in the narrowness of its frame of reference. Fives love details, losing themselves in research, scholarship, and complex intellectual pursuits. They think in depth, concentrating so much that they block out other perceptions (eventually to their detriment). By contrast, even brilliant Nines tend to have problems concentrating; they also tend to lose interest quickly and to allow their attention to drift off when they become bored or anxious.

    Nines tend to spin grand, sweeping, idealistic solutions to problems, while Fives tend to speculate on problems, then on the problems that their problems have raised, then on those problems, ad infinitum. Nines may be gifted storytellers, able to communicate simply and effectively to others, even to children. Fives usually communicate to only a few or keep their ideas entirely to themselves. (Moreover, their ideas may be so complicated that they are difficult to communicate to all but other specialists.) Nines usually do not consider the consequences of their actions; Fives are extremely interested in predicting the consequences of every action. Nines idealize the world and create imaginary worlds in which good always triumphs over evil; Fives analyze the real world and create horrifying scenarios in which evil usually triumphs over good or exists in tension with it. Nines simplify; Fives complexify. Nines look to the past; Fives to the future. Nines are fantasists; Fives are theorists. Nines are disengaged; Fives are detached. Nines are utopians; Fives are nihilists. Nines are optimists; Fives are pessimists. Nines are open; Fives are resistant. Nines are non-threatening and nonjudgmental; Fives are defensive and contentious. Nines are at peace; Fives are in tension. Nines end in dissociation; Fives in paranoia.

    Comparisons and contrasts such as these could be multiplied almost indefinitely because, while these two types are such opposites, they are also paradoxically similar. What they have in common is the tendency to ask "What if?" questions. The difference is in their response: Nines tend to ruminate on their fantasies, while Fives attempt to see if their ideas could come true. The Nine's ideas usually involve a single insight that, while true enough, is often impractical and goes nowhere. For instance, a Nine may think that the way to world peace is "for everyone to love one another." While this is doubtlessly true, the problem not addressed is how to get everyone to love one another. A Five wondering about the same problem would write a treatise on world peace after doing exhaustive historical research, eventually erecting a grand theory of peace. (The Five's ideas may also come to nothing, but at least they are pursued, and practical results may eventually come of them.) To give another example, a Nine might wonder what it is like to fly and make up a story about it. A Five might wonder how to fly and invent an airplane or do research on birds or design a rocket.

    In short, Nines have an active fantasy life and think that they have deep thoughts. Sometimes they do, of course, although the thinking of intelligent, well-educated Nines tends to be in the direction of simplifying reality and cutting through abstruse thickets to get at the kernel of truth beneath. Nines tend to see things the way they want them to be; they reinterpret reality to make it more comforting and less threatening, simpler and less daunting. By contrast, the thinking of Fives is complex. By attempting to arrive at a grand unifying theory that encompasses and explains everything, average Fives end up involved in increasing complications and abstractions. Their thought is focused on specifics, often highly technical and concerned with foresight and the consequences of acting one way rather than another. But at an extreme, Fives risk seeing reality not as it is but as a projection of their preoccupations and fears. They distort their perceptions of reality so that reality seems more negative and threatening than it actually is.

    Nines feel at ease in the world, and their style of thinking reflects their unconscious desire to merge with the world. Fives are afraid of being overwhelmed by the world, and their intellectual efforts are an unconscious defense against the world, an attempt to master it intellectually. There is a world of difference between these two types since they see the world so differently. Compare Charles Darwin (a Five) and Walt Disney (a Nine), Albert Einstein (a Five) and Jim Henson (a Nine) to understand the similarities and differences between these two types more clearly.
    The Enneagram Institute: Members Section

    Large doses of salt required though
    [Kierkegaard: either/or] At the moment of choice, he is at the point of consummation, for his personality is consummating itself, and yet at the same moment he is at the very beginning, because he is choosing himself according to his freedom. As a product he is squeezed into the forms of actuality; in the choice he makes himself elastic, transforms everything exterior into interiority. He has his place in the world; in freedom he chooses his place---that is, he chooses this place

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsuwanatom View Post
    I would say I have high levels of introversion but I have never scored a 5 before.
    Also, I think enneagrams are easier to self-identify (the main numbers anyway) without taking a test. To be honest, I have only taken 1 enneagram test (Fauvre's test when they distributed the free code on the enneagram forum: Enneagram Test & Instinctual Subtype Tests by Chernick-Fauvre & Fauvre), where I scored highest for the gut centre (with E9) and then the head (E7) and the heart (E3)---and also I scored higher for the w1 than w8.

    To be fair, I would say 9s mistype themselves a lot, and this is more to do with issues of having an authentic identity (but not in the sense of E4's) due to their tendency to be unaware and their issues with denial and repression (especially when it's coupled with w1). 9's desire for inner harmony can also mislead them to be accommodating to their immediate environment---so they merge more with whoever they strongly admire and "take on" that person's number.

    I think a 9w8 person would not be easily mistyped as a 5, but 9w1 yes.

    Anyway, here's about mistyping 9 and 5:

    The Enneagram Institute: Members Section

    Large doses of salt required though
    Thanks, that pegs me as 9w1 for sure and is why I think I feel more like an ESTP.

    Here are the points that really hit me

    gentle, easygoing, patient, receptive, and accommodating
    Nines are impressionistic, involved with generalities, imaginative ruminations, and fanciful situations. Nines typically do not concern themselves with details, nor are they usually good at following up once they have acted
    Nines simplify; Fives complexify. Nines look to the past; Fives to the future. Nines are fantasists; Fives are theorists. Nines are disengaged; Fives are detached. Nines are utopians; Fives are nihilists. Nines are optimists; Fives are pessimists. Nines are open; Fives are resistant. Nines are non-threatening and nonjudgmental; Fives are defensive and contentious. Nines are at peace; Fives are in tension. Nines end in dissociation; Fives in paranoia.
    Nines have an active fantasy life and think that they have deep thoughts. Sometimes they do, of course, although the thinking of intelligent, well-educated Nines tends to be in the direction of simplifying reality and cutting through abstruse thickets to get at the kernel of truth beneath. Nines tend to see things the way they want them to be; they reinterpret reality to make it more comforting and less threatening, simpler and less daunting.

  8. #28
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    tetsuwanatom, thanks for the info about mistyping.

    the basic motivations and drives for a 5 and a 9 are pretty different. maybe we can tend to look similar on the surface when you are just looking at behaviors and not the underlying motivations.
    maybe a 5 could talk a little about what motivates them? my understanding is that learning and acquiring knowledge, analyzing how and why everything works, understanding how the world works, are big motivations for 5's.

    i really agree a lot with the stuff that poki has posted.
    these 2 especially are big motivations in my life:

    being awake versus falling asleep to our true nature
    Nines simplify

  9. #29
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    Nines simplify; Fives complexify. Nines look to the past; Fives to the future. Nines are fantasists; Fives are theorists. Nines are disengaged; Fives are detached. Nines are utopians; Fives are nihilists. Nines are optimists; Fives are pessimists. Nines are open; Fives are resistant. Nines are non-threatening and nonjudgmental; Fives are defensive and contentious. Nines are at peace; Fives are in tension. Nines end in dissociation; Fives in paranoia.
    To me the five portion sounds like an SJ type. Could this be one of the reasons why ISTJ and ISTP in socionics dont align.

    So what exactly is being myself? Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    So what exactly is being myself? Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?
    haha, that is something i struggle with constantly.
    my feeling generally is that "being myself" is about directly expressing myself, acting and expressing without any real thought, just letting my instincts and natural self guide my actions. so i think 'feeling free to do as we please' is a huge part of it, personal expression is a big part of "being myself". but also doing the right thing is a huge part. for me it is a feeling that i am in tune with myself and can express myself freely, but also that i am in tune with my morality - and ultimately acting and being true to myself by doing the right thing.

    i think we are being 'ourselves' when we don't let our enviroment dictate our freedom. you asked "Can we only be ourselves when we feel free to do as we please?" i am all about expressing myself, but i think the way we learn to be ourselves is by understanding that there are no real restrictions posed on us by the outside world. so when it feels like "i am not free to be myself" i think we need to realize that we are the one holding back from being ourself, and it is not really the enviroment limiting us. i mean, i think we are always free to be ourself at all times, no matter what kind of enviroment we are in. so it is not really as much about 'being free to express yourself', it is more about having the strength to express yourself when it does not seem like you are free to do so.

    i mean, i think the real challenege is being in tune with yourself. so i think it is more a battle to become in tune with yourself, rather than already know yourself and battle at trying to express it.

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