[Traditional Enneagram] Ask any questions about Typology here- Enneagram, MBTI, socionics

[BlackCat]

I am well versed on all three systems. Have a nagging question that is too miniscule for a thread? Confused on your type? Think socionics is rubbish? Etc. Just post here, and I'll answer as best I can (and maybe someone else can give you an answer to your question too!).

 

[Owl]

These questions are very... basic. But I've not found much consensus on how to answer these questions, (even among those who've written books on this subject). How would you answer? Be as brief or as thorough as you like.

1) In what sense is Feeling a judging function?

2) What is the essence of iNtuition?

3) What makes a function Introverted or Extroverted anyway?

 

[BlackCat]

1) In what sense is Feeling a judging function?

Thinking is an objective judgment process, Feeling is a subjective judgment process. Fi users judge people and situations based on their own subjective views, a more "what is" process. Ne and Se expand and act on these judgments. Fi users (like Fe users) pick up on people's moods and behaviors. This happens because Fi users detect someone's attachment to an object or situation or person etc, and through Ne or Se the user can predict someone's mood. Fe is more judging people and situations based on their current state, not on "what is". Si and Ni remembers previous states of people and notices consistencies in behavior within people to predict how people will feel in a given situation, thus making these "social rules" as people call them.

2) What is the essence of iNtuition?

That's a good question. I'd say that it's based in your mind, and that your mind unconsciously makes connections from one thing to another, and we call it "intuition".

3) What makes a function Introverted or Extroverted anyway?

An introverted function is drawn inward and internalized, it's more subjective. Extroverted functions and projected outward. Take Ti vs Te for example, Ti is internal logic application and logical standards, Te is external logic application and logical standards. For this reason Ti users look at a problem and sort of filter it through their Ti system, they see the missing pieces and then through Se and Ne fill in said pieces. Te users just simply apply logic in a given situation, it's not based on a system, it's just based on what works. Te isn't really internalized like Ti is. Te standards are internalized based on Si or Ni.

 

[The Outsider]

1.) Is there a good and accurate Socionics test that doesn't induce suicidal tendencies after going through the first 15 questions?

2.) What are your thoughts on visual identification and the physical characteristics that at times seem to make their way into Socionics type descriptions?

 

[BlackCat]

1.) Is there a good and accurate Socionics test that doesn't induce suicidal tendencies after going through the first 15 questions?

I recently took this test and got ISFj, which is my type in socionics. However the best way to verify your type is to just read through the descriptions, read the functions and the positions of the functions, and see how it relates to you. Also looking through all of the dichotomies helps as well. Also look at quadra, and also you relations to people. It's a decent bit of work to get started on socionics. Here's a good site for looking up all of this stuff- Wikisocion home - Wikisocion It's very rewarding though when you've read up on it and actually understand it.

2.) What are your thoughts on visual identification and the physical characteristics that at times seem to make their way into Socionics type descriptions?

I think that visual identification is totally valid, but you shouldn't rely on it and shouldn't make or break your type in any way. It's just a way to get a better idea of other people. As for physical characteristics being in type descriptions, well that's totally bullshit. The best way to visually identify someone based on type is by their expressions on their face, their "normal" look. Usually when I visually identify someone I either look for quadra or which function I see. I'm accurate with visual identification also, so even if people don't believe in it, it works for me (and can work for you too).

EXAMPLES OF VISUAL IDENTIFICATION WORKING-

My socionics type is ISFj. Here are some pictures of me to start with-

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=298&pictureid=4838
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=298&pictureid=4331
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=298&pictureid=4839

Now look at these other ISFjs. See any similarities in expression? I dunno, they just give off a similar feel to me.

Dave Chappelle- Dave Chappelle
Sid Vicious- Sid Vicious
Bob Dylan- Bob Dylan
Johnny Depp- Johnny Depp
Some dude named Edward Murrow- Edward R. Murrow
James Franco- James Franco
Enrique Iglesias- Enrique Iglesias

 

[The Outsider]

Thanks a lot, I'll look more into it.

As for the visual identification, I definitely do see similarities in expressions. However, I don't yet know the theory well enough to judge it objectively.

 

[Oaky]

I have asked this question on another thread from one of your assumptions. What does it mean when you use the term 'Gamma' or 'Alpha'?

 

[BlackCat]

I have asked this question on another thread from one of your assumptions. What does it mean when you use the term 'Gamma' or 'Alpha'?

This refers to the quadra of someone. This is sort of like temperament, but it's much more broad and descriptive of how the members of the quadra truly are.

Before you read this, keep in mind socionics is different from MBTI, and when I say roughly I mean that this is usually what MBTI type said socionics type is. There are plenty of exceptions to this rule though. Just saying.

The quadras are as follows-

Alpha- ENTp (roughly ENTP), ESFj (roughly ESFJ), INTj (roughly INTP), ISFp (roughly ISFP)
Beta- ESTp (roughly ESTP), ENFj (roughly ENFJ), INFp (this one is odd, I know INFJs and INFPs who are INFp), and ISTj (roughly ISTJ)
Delta- ENFp (roughly ENFP), ESTj (roughly ESTJ), ISTp (roughly ISTP), and INFj (like INFp, I've seen INFJs and INFPs be INFj).
Gamma- ESFp (roughly ESFP), ENTj (roughly ENTJ), ISFj (roughly ISFJ), and INTp (roughly INTJ).

Alpha and Gamma oppose each other, and Beta and Delta oppose each other.

Referring to my claim about you, you got both INTp and INTj. The INTj and INTp are in opposing quadras, meaning that they are very, very different in behavior and their views and beliefs etc. This is why I made the call on INTp.

Here are the links to the quadras-

Alpha Quadra - Wikisocion
Beta Quadra - Wikisocion
Delta Quadra - Wikisocion
Gamma Quadra - Wikisocion

 

[Oaky]

This refers to the quadra of someone. This is sort of like temperament, but it's much more broad and descriptive of how the members of the quadra truly are.

Before you read this, keep in mind socionics is different from MBTI, and when I say roughly I mean that this is usually what MBTI type said socionics type is. There are plenty of exceptions to this rule though. Just saying.

The quadras are as follows-

Alpha- ENTp (roughly ENTP), ESFj (roughly ESFJ), INTj (roughly INTP), ISFp (roughly ISFP)
Beta- ESTp (roughly ESTP), ENFj (roughly ENFJ), INFp (this one is odd, I know INFJs and INFPs who are INFp), and ISTj (roughly ISTJ)
Delta- ENFp (roughly ENFP), ESTj (roughly ESTJ), ISTp (roughly ISTP), and INFj (like INFp, I've seen INFJs and INFPs be INFj).
Gamma- ESFp (roughly ESFP), ENTj (roughly ENTJ), ISFj (roughly ISFJ), and INTp (roughly INTJ).

Alpha and Gamma oppose each other, and Beta and Delta oppose each other.

Referring to my claim about you, you got both INTp and INTj. The INTj and INTp are in opposing quadras, meaning that they are very, very different in behavior and their views and beliefs etc. This is why I made the call on INTp.

Here are the links to the quadras-

Alpha Quadra - Wikisocion
Beta Quadra - Wikisocion
Delta Quadra - Wikisocion
Gamma Quadra - Wikisocion

Very interesting. I guess I'll go through to reading and understanding socionics.
Although I myself believe I have some of the Alpha traits based on what I read in the URLs you provided.
Although you said they have very different behaviors, is it not possible for someone to have the some of the traits of two sides and thus mistaking one person for the type they match closest with?

 

[BlackCat]

Very interesting. I guess I'll go through to reading and understanding socionics.
Although I myself believe I have some of the Alpha traits based on what I read in the URLs you provided.
Although you said they have very different behaviors, is it not possible for someone to have the some of the traits of two sides and thus mistaking one person for the type they match closest with?

Well, there are some people that get conflicted between two I'm sure, but I don't really see how. Gamma and Alpha are just so different. Gamma values Fi, Se, Ni, and Te. While Alpha values Ti, Ne, Si, and Fe. Totally different. And as a result, they have very different traits and such.

Plus if you were on the fence about ILI and LII, then I'd say a good way to determine what you are would be to read more into the reinen dichotomies (these really clear some things up) since ILI and LII are very different when it comes to these. Another way would be to determine who your dual is (ESFp vs ESFj).

 

[Oaky]

Well, there are some people that get conflicted between two I'm sure, but I don't really see how. Gamma and Alpha are just so different. Gamma values Fi, Se, Ni, and Te. While Alpha values Ti, Ne, Si, and Fe. Totally different. And as a result, they have very different traits and such.

Plus if you were on the fence about ILI and LII, then I'd say a good way to determine what you are would be to read more into the reinen dichotomies (these really clear some things up) since ILI and LII are very different when it comes to these. Another way would be to determine who your dual is (ESFp vs ESFj).

On a note: You said that gamma values Fi, Se, Ni and Te. If I remember correctly those were all the traits of the INTJ.

On the issue although they are totally different some people surely can get conflicted between two.
An example would be in MBTI one may be 49% Thinker and 51% Feeler. They are opposed to each other yet it is not 'Black or White' and one may appeal to both.

I'm sorry for not understanding about the ILI and LII. I'm not so great at socionics.

 

[Costrin]

On a note: You said that gamma values Fi, Se, Ni and Te. If I remember correctly those were all the traits of the INTJ.

In Socionics, ILI (INTp) is NiTe, LII (INTj) is TiNe.

 

[Oaky]

In Socionics, ILI (INTp) is NiTe, LII (INTj) is TiNe.

I see... Im starting to get the gist of it.
I got a bit confused back there. I accidentally mixed MBTI with socionics.

 

[psyche]

Thank you for this thread, BlackCat.

I've always been confused about the following:

1. What does it mean when someone uses a lowercase letter in their type? (e.g., ENfP)

2. What do Fe, Ni, etc. mean? Do these relate to how the functions are expressed, like extraverted feeling, etc.?

3. Related to my last question, I don't understand the descriptions I've read about what one's dominant function versus non-dominant function is. For example, if you're ENFP, that means your N is extraverted and your F is introverted? I don't know how to come up with this determination, or what it even means. I'm XNFX. I know my F is both extraverted and introverted. I'm probably slightly more of an E than an I, but nevertheless, my F is very much directed both inward and outward.....

thanks!

 

[Mondo]

Can you give an example or two as to when someone would be a different MBTI type from Socionics type?
From reading the descriptions of MBTI/Socionics.. the descriptions sound virtually the same for each type- at least the ILE/ENTP are basically the same.

 

[BlackCat]

Thank you for this thread, BlackCat.

I've always been confused about the following:

1. What does it mean when someone uses a lowercase letter in their type? (e.g., ENfP)

2. What do Fe, Ni, etc. mean? Do these relate to how the functions are expressed, like extraverted feeling, etc.?

3. Related to my last question, I don't understand the descriptions I've read about what one's dominant function versus non-dominant function is. For example, if you're ENFP, that means your N is extraverted and your F is introverted? I don't know how to come up with this determination, or what it even means. I'm XNFX. I know my F is both extraverted and introverted. I'm probably slightly more of an E than an I, but nevertheless, my F is very much directed both inward and outward.....

thanks!

1. A lower case letter indicates a weak preference. Like, borderline S and N, would be, for example, an IsTJ.

2. I think you're just approaching the system in the wrong way... have you actually found any function descriptions? The way MBTI's types are set up-

A P type will have Se or Ne in the first two. A J type will have Fe or Te in the first two.

Then add E or I. Extroverts must have an extroverted function up front, introverts must have an introverted function up front.

Then factor in N and S. S types have a sensing function in the first two, N types have an intuitive function in the first two. The same applies for feeling and thinking.

So, as an ENFP, you are a P type, so you have Ne or Se. As an N, you have Ne. As an E, you have Ne up front. As a feeler, you have Fi as a secondary.

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...rin-s-super-amazing-function-definitions.html

Read that.

Can you give an example or two as to when someone would be a different MBTI type from Socionics type?
From reading the descriptions of MBTI/Socionics.. the descriptions sound virtually the same for each type- at least the ILE/ENTP are basically the same.

It just happens. You have to factor in a lot of other things other than the type itself. The reinen dichotomies, their quadra, what they can relate to as a PoLR, how the relationships play themselves out etc. MBTI isn't socionics in any way, shape, or form. If you're going to learn it you need to forget about MBTI, or at least separate the two in your mind.

I'm an example of the type being different. In MBTI I'm an INFP, and in socionics I'm an ISFj. This is because I relate perfectly to the gamma quadra, the relationships, all of the reinen dichotomies fit, and I relate to socionics Ne as a main weakness. I know an ENTP who is an ENFp in socionics, two INFPs I'm close to are an EII and an IEI, they are very different but are still INFP in MBTI. I know an ENFP who's ENFj in socionics. It's very different. There isn't a set translation whatsoever.

Socionics is much more precise, it's just a generally better system in my opinion.

Socionics is different from MBTI because their functions are defined differently.

 

[Polaris]

About the Enneagram . . . I'm wondering if you think it's possible that I'm a type Four even though I'm emotionally dead most of the time. In every other way, type Four is spot-on for me; it's just that one thing that's off.

For Socionics. What would you say to someone (like me) who doesn't feel that they fit smugly within that system? I've looked at the Reinin dichotomies, and I fall all over the place,* without any single type that possesses all of my Reinin traits. As for the main types, I relate to the dominant functions of all four INXXs, especially Ni, but not very much to any of their secondary functions.

*Delta, Positivist, Declaring, Farsighted, Result, Strategic, Democratic, Judicious, Yielding, Constructivist, and Merry.

For my MBTI question . . . I have none.

 

[snegledmaca]

I have no connection to the maker of this thread or the purpose of this thread, but I would advise against using reinin dichotomies. IMO all they do is confuse people as they IMO have no practical merit. IMO in the state they are now they are nothing more the Ti mental masturbation that has little connection to reality. Most of them are IMO make belief produced from trying to bend reality to pretty mathematical patterns. I am not claiming that the mathematics behind them is invalid, but I have not seen any indication that they are relevant IRL or significant in assessing one's type. From my experience they tend to be vague and difficultly distinguishable IRL. If at all. More often an obstacle then help.

 

[BlackCat]

I have no connection to the maker of this thread or the purpose of this thread, but I would advise against using reinin dichotomies. IMO all they do is confuse people as they IMO have no practical merit. IMO in the state they are now they are nothing more the Ti mental masturbation that has little connection to reality. Most of them are IMO make belief produced from trying to bend reality to pretty mathematical patterns. I am not claiming that the mathematics behind them is invalid, but I have not seen any indication that they are relevant IRL or significant in assessing one's type. From my experience they tend to be vague and difficultly distinguishable IRL. If at all. More often an obstacle then help.

Yeah I know what you mean. In my experience it either really helps someone or really confuses them, since they either fit into most if not all, or they are all over the place (getting confused more). I advised the use of them because they helped me personally, but yeah. Thanks for pointing that out.

If they confuse you, don't take them too seriously. The function placements and quadra and way more important.

 

[psyche]

Thanks for your response.

To be honest, I still don't understand the Se, etc. and the link you posted I'd already visited. The information there presupposes a lot more knowledge of the MBTI than I have. I have yet to find a source that explains in simple language what is meant by having an introverted versus extraverted function, etc. -- or what Se, etc. even mean. If you know of a source, I'd love to be referred to it. But I appreciate your response.