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  1. #51
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    How many of those who think the Enneagram is helpful have used the personal growth recommendations (among other things) to move up in levels of health and in their direction of integration?

    How many who haven't found the Enneagram helpful don't know what I'm talking about?
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  2. #52
    brainheart
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    I read some of Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Riso and Hudson yesterday and I'm thinking it's superior to MBTI. I think MBTI gets too caught up in the differences (so easy to become absorbed in S vs N, T vs F, etc), while enneagram seems more holistic.

    Four fits me so well- I can look at the health levels and easily see where I am and what I need to focus on vs becoming absorbed with the triviality of whether I use Se or Ne. Sure, I could spend time wondering whether I am a three or a five wing or what the order of my instinctual variants is, but it's not something that is required in order for me to benefit.

    I think it's a lot easier for you to type yourself with it- well, it is for me, anyway.

  3. #53
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I read some of Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Riso and Hudson yesterday and I'm thinking it's superior to MBTI. I think MBTI gets too caught up in the differences (so easy to become absorbed in S vs N, T vs F, etc), while enneagram seems more holistic.

    It provides more insight than the mbti, provided you’re someone who happens to fit well into one of the types/subtypes.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case—then it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. –Thomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  4. #54
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    The diagrams and explanations here under 'What is the Enneagram' show the underlying structure. That helps to stop the wings from seeming arbitrary, to me anyway. The Australian Enneagram Community (AEC).

    In terms of usefulness, I think Myers-Briggs and related theories are better for interpersonal issues as well as educational ones, and the Enneagram is better for intrapersonal stuff.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    My counselor friends who use MBTI/Enneagram together say

    • MBTI captures normal strengths while Enneagram captures coping mechanisms--what you do when you're masking/protecting yourself
    • There are no good Enneagram assessments as they all pick up "MBTI" noise. Helen Palmer whose books jumpstarted current Enneagram use claimed that you needed to attend workshops and hear people of all 9 types present, ask questions, and use that info to find your Enneagram type
    • If a person begins to recognize when they're relying on Enneagram coping mechanisms rather than leading from their personality they can begin to escape self-defeating patterns
    • Any MBTI type can be any Enneagram type, but they reinforce/contradict in varying magnitudes. Sometimes they're like type/shadow partners and sometimes the enneagram is very similar to type.
    • Another way to look at Enneagram is the biggest trap you fall into.


    I'm E7, which is a lot like ESTP, my "shadow" type. How can playfulness and overwhelming optimism be a bad thing? When it keeps you from taking needed action. Like..."My kid's just immature. Surely nothing REALLY bad can be going on..." or "I'm sure that pain in my side will just go away...why see a doctor..." or "No need to rehash what happened, I'll just find better ways next time..." And so on. It's almost easy to see when the trap is kicking in. For ISTJs, though, for example, who have a perfectionist Enneagram type (I think that's 1's???) it can be way harder to see what is going on...

    So these counselors aren't picking either MBTI or Enneagram but taking a both/and approach

    excellent post and sums it up the whole relation between enneagram and mbti, also enneagram is very useful if you go deeper in it and actually expirience all described defenses for your type within you

    EDIT: it's not surprise that this excellent post is written by no more or less but president of association of psychology types international, edcoaching. it's obvious when someone rare on this forum really knows it.


    btw. the thing edcoaching was talking about is all from book "three keys to self-understanding" -pat wyman

    I for example as ENFP and E3 (who best correspond imo to ESTJ), expirience huge switches in my personality when stressed. When I'm stressed I'm more in 3 mood -making billion of plans about billion of stuff that i'll achieve at (all goal oriented, enjoying is not on 1st place), try to be very busy and business-like, formal, then if that doesnt work for some reason (probably because i'm not dealing with inital stress or troubled situation in right way, instead of defending over E3), I went to E9 and go to totally "dont care about anything, i just wanna sleep" mode.
    it's literally the same way each time person is under stress. people who have very different enneagram type and MBTI type notice this shift easier because they tend to act "not like themselves" under stress, though some people actually figure out that they've been acting whole life as their E-type, a defense. If you're ex. ENFP and E7 your defense is very similar to true self, but again it's equally unhealthy just less noticable.
    Many internal conflicts people have are usually linked to this. Like if you're S type and E4, or P and E1, E and E9/5, I and E3/7/8. F and 8,3 etc. T and E4...

  6. #56
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    How many of those who think the Enneagram is helpful have used the personal growth recommendations (among other things) to move up in levels of health and in their direction of integration?

    How many who haven't found the Enneagram helpful don't know what I'm talking about?
    ive used it for personal growth. its very useful for identifying my least effective "mental habits". the growth levels give good examples to aspire or avoid. As enneagram 1, ive basically learned to be more accepting of life, as it is: "just accept what is, rather than worry about what should be..."

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I read some of Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Riso and Hudson yesterday and I'm thinking it's superior to MBTI. I think MBTI gets too caught up in the differences (so easy to become absorbed in S vs N, T vs F, etc), while enneagram seems more holistic.

    Four fits me so well- I can look at the health levels and easily see where I am and what I need to focus on vs becoming absorbed with the triviality of whether I use Se or Ne. Sure, I could spend time wondering whether I am a three or a five wing or what the order of my instinctual variants is, but it's not something that is required in order for me to benefit.

    I think it's a lot easier for you to type yourself with it- well, it is for me, anyway.
    I agree. When i hadnt really looked into it, I quickly settled as 8. But when i actually read up about it, it was an easy typing. Much easier than MBTI. I still feel 100% positive about 1w9 sp/sx. I actually feel like its a better approximation of myself than my MBTI. My mbti type only gives me 80-90% confidence. I base this on the problem of S vs N and T vs F. The enneagram is just this nice big picture that is still specific enough to avoid astrological confirmation bias. Its also more based on your actions rather than "thought patterns" like MBTI claims to be (easier to type yourself)...

  7. #57
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    I think the enneagram is really logical, you start with a primary motivation, (like for example enneagram 5s need for compentance), then you look at which triad such a type is in:

    2, 3 and 4 are heart types and feel shame etc.
    5, 6 and 7 are head types and feel anxiety
    8, 9 and 1 are gut types and feel anger

    The motivations and the triads are directly related, for E5, they strive to be competant because when they're not they feel anxious, E2 feels shame unless they feel that they are worth something to other people, E8 desires control of the world around them and gets angry when they don't have it.

    Then you've got wings (which are quite clear, and unlike what most people think, do actually work and make sense), and then you've got instincts, and then integration, disintegration and health levels (which also add quite a lot to the types).

    Blackcats probably explained all of this in his threads (which I'm yet to look at, but I'm getting to it). But anyway, the enneagram is far deeper than most seem to think, it has a lot of reasoning behind it. MBTI is just what it says it is... a type indicator. Cognitive functions and theory does have a bit more depth to it though, which I think socionics explains and uses quite well
    5 3 9

  8. #58
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    But anyway, the enneagram is far deeper than most seem to think, it has a lot of reasoning behind it.
    i agree with this, enneagram is very helpful. people who dont see it either didnt look deep enough in enneagram, or they've ran across bad material. there are many useless descriptions of enneatypes who focus more on traits and not enough on core fixations.

    MBTI is just what it says it is... a type indicator. Cognitive functions and theory does have a bit more depth to it though, which I think socionics explains and uses quite well
    This too, MBTI isn't to me as useful as it looks in the beginning. It's more useful for understanding relationship or quick understanding of others than it's for self-development. Though combined with Enneagram it is useful, but i prefer enneagram.

  9. #59
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    For me at least, MBTI covered the how.

    Enneagram covered the why.

  10. #60
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    In terms of usefulness, I think Myers-Briggs and related theories are better for interpersonal issues as well as educational ones, and the Enneagram is better for intrapersonal stuff.
    I take that back, the Enneagram has since helped me understand the troubled relationship and cognitive dissonance I have with one particular person (an average Eight) far, far better than Jungian-based typologies ever have. I have a lot more sympathy for them now.

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