Edward Snowden

[Jaguar]

It also explains why Snowden is a confirmed INTP.

Still banging that drum . . .

I can’t hope to change the way things are going by overtly complaining, writing letters, or blowing things up. That’s not the way a good person does things. I will, however, do what I can with the tools that are available to me.

A good person? Define 'good person'. Define 'bad person'.

He claimed to own the same gun as James Bond and posted glamour photos of himself.

So, in addition to moralizing, apparently he was into attention-whoring and harbored a desire to be America's Next Top Model.
INTP? Of course. It's a perfect fit.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

INTP? Of course. It's a perfect fit.

Yup. He's a confirmed INTP. I'm glad you've opened your eyes.

 

[Jaguar]

I'm glad you've opened your eyes.

Indeed.

 

[Salomé]

Truth is not always fun.

You lie!

Seriously though, what is the basis for the Electra/Oedipal complex and penis/womb envy?

A combination of myth and the projection of a private fixation? I dunno. Ask a Freudian.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe that these theories are being used to prop up or support some other theory.. that the truth of them is irrelevant because they are too useful. Not that you're doing that. I just haven't seen anything that suggests otherwise.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Psychology/psychoanalysis suffered in its infancy too much from a lack of scientific rigour. From which it has yet to free itself, it must be said.
Those theories however, have something that yours (a couple of posts back) lacks: internal consistency.

'twas my point.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Those theories however, have something that yours (a couple of posts back) lacks: internal consistency.

I didn't fully articulate it.

I think the striving for "power" (or "presence" to use something more ethically neutral) is Se. You seem to be into socionics, IIRC, and socionics describes Se the same way. Se is about fully grasping your environment. I don't really see how this relates to Fi, as the INFPs I've known were not about that. If they were ever control freaks, it seemed to be more about harmony with their inner state... they didn't like the reaction to something they were having, and seeked to change the environment to bring it more in line with themselves.

Se is concrete, and seeks to navigate actual physical environments correctly. INTJs seem to place some importance on this, and it seems important to their self-image, just like Fe is important for my self-image.

I agree that Fi is important for INTJ's, but the more competitive nature of the INTJ is not because of the Fi, but because of the Se, I think. Although, I wonder if it's a situation where Se provides the ability to control environments, but Fi provides the will. I can see why Fi would seek to change the environment, to bring it in line with itself. I suppose Se is important as the means for doing this.

You might have a point here. Interesting.

I do think there is something "aspirational" about the inferior function, it's the function that people are going to most want to "prove" something to others with.

"See....I'm not a cold-blooded robot.... I care about poverty and crap! "

"See...I'm not an overly-abstracted nerd... I like gangsta rap!"

That's my main point... really. INTPs want to be engaged and invested and passionate, INTJs want to be powerful and a force to be reckoned with.

Introverted intuition has nothing to do with physical power. Se does. Fi might generate the will to have that power, though.

The real reason I think Snowden is INTP and not INTJ is because he doesn't really want to be the one who makes the calls. He doesn't want the power. To me, it seems as though he feels as though the responsibility fell on him, and he was the only one who could act.

 

[Salomé]

You seem to be into socionics,

Um..no.

You misunderstand me. What you call "inferior Fe" ("annoying hippies with causes") in INTPs better describes Fi than any kind of Fe...
Inferior Fe != Fi

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Um..no.

You misunderstand me. What you call "inferior Fe" ("annoying hippies with causes") in INTPs better describes Fi than any kind of Fe...
Inferior Fe != Fi

Why does it better describe Fi? Explain what Fi is, and what Fe is then, and how that cannot be Fe. I think the "causes" exists with Fi, but it looks really different in a way that I can't quite pin down yet, except that it seems more "absolute" and less "concrete."

From now on, if someone says "no... that's way more Fe than Fi..." or "that's way more Fi than Fe" to me, they'll have to explain. Only then will I be able to judge the merits of the argument and issue a ruling.

Otherwise, I'll be forced to conclude that all people are really doing with that is taking the aspects of feeling they don't like, and attributing them to the dastardly "other" feeling function.

You may misunderstand what I mean by "annoying hippies with causes." It was a self-deprecating exaggeration, more than anything else.

 

[Salomé]

Why does it better describe Fi? Explain what Fi is, and what Fe is then, and how that cannot be Fe.

Seriously? There are plenty of primers out there.
You appear to allude to an iconoclasm/eccentricity which characterises Ji (users).

If what you say is not what you mean then I can hardly be expected to understand you.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Seriously? There are plenty of primers out there.
You appear to allude to an iconoclasm/eccentricity which characterises Ji (users).

If what you say is not what you mean then I can hardly be expected to understand you.

It might help if you explained what you mean, and then I can clear up any misconceptions... nevertheless, I will try as best as I am able.

Perhaps "causes" is a poor word choice, and "issues" might be better. In any case, the salient part of it is not the way in which the "issue" is tackled. When I speak of "annoying hippie idealism" I don't necessarily mean people engaging in demonstrations or putting bumper stickers on their cars, or being consumed by an "issue" every waking moment.

All I mean with an "issue" is concern with an aspect of morality that an organizaton, group, or society is deficient in. Please do not tell me you are above such things, because your posting history suggests otherwise.

Fi users will tackle these "issues", but it seems as the end goal is eliminating the lack of harmony between themselves and the environment. As long as though they feel they are doing the right thing, they will be satisfied. Fe users have more of an external change in mind, and can rarely be contented by purely symbolic acts and "inner" proofs of morality. "Taking the high road" and being strictly "honorable" is more of a Fi concern than a Fe concern. Fe, as extraverted feeling, when directed towards progress, is focused on actually getting shit done for "progress" (whatever that looks like), rather than on maintaining inner purity.

If you're going to go "that's not Fe, that's Fi" please present an alternative model of Fi vs. Fe if you want a hearing.

Conservative INTPs are similarly concerned with "issues", it's just that they are different issues, I should add.

Additionally... inferior Fi seems to manifest itself as a striving for inner purity.

 

[Cellmold]

Bobby Fischer's face looks so temptingly slappable.

 

[Rasofy]

Bobby Fischer's face looks so temptingly slappable.

That cocksure demeanor combined with asocial eyes is peculiar to INTJs. Like "hurry up with that damn picture, you're wasting my precious time".

INTPs usually look friendlier and more reachable.

 

[Cellmold]

That cocksure demeanor combined with asocial eyes is peculiar to INTJs. Like "hurry up with that damn picture, you're wasting my precious time".

INTPs usually look friendlier and more reachable.

Besides his quotes are almost comically arrogant. Like someone read up on the definition and decided to personify it, in much the same manner as a person might try to use their new word in a sentence.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Besides his quotes are almost comically arrogant. Like someone read up on the definition and decided to personify it, in much the same manner as a person might try to use their new word in a sentence.

I dunno I think people deserve credit when they single-handedly change the course of history. Not that he did that, of course.

 

[Cellmold]

Not that he did that, of course.

Exactly!

 

[Salomé]

I always want to slap INTJs too!
(Between you and me, I reckon they likes it.)

It might help if you explained what you mean, and then I can clear up any misconceptions... nevertheless, I will try as best as I am able.

Perhaps "causes" is a poor word choice, and "issues" might be better. In any case, the salient part of it is not the way in which the "issue" is tackled. When I speak of "annoying hippie idealism" I don't necessarily mean people engaging in demonstrations or putting bumper stickers on their cars, or being consumed by an "issue" every waking moment.

All I mean with an "issue" is concern with an aspect of morality that an organizaton, group, or society is deficient in. Please do not tell me you are above such things, because your posting history suggests otherwise.

Fi users will tackle these "issues", but it seems as the end goal is eliminating the lack of harmony between themselves and the environment. As long as though they feel they are doing the right thing, they will be satisfied. Fe users have more of an external change in mind, and can rarely be contented by purely symbolic acts and "inner" proofs of morality. "Taking the high road" and being strictly "honorable" is more of a Fi concern than a Fe concern. Fe, as extraverted feeling, when directed towards progress, is focused on actually getting shit done for "progress" (whatever that looks like), rather than on maintaining inner purity.

I'm not about to tell you I'm above pointing out the deficiencies of others, but if you have any evidence of me ever "getting shit done" I'd be very pleased to hear about it...

If you're going to go "that's not Fe, that's Fi" please present an alternative model of Fi vs. Fe if you want a hearing.

Meh. I don't want to have this conversation again, I've had it elsewhere.
I can't find online versions of the reference standards I use, here's a decent enough analysis:
http://introspective-to-a-fault.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/introverted-feeling-extraverted-feeling.html
Essentially, Fe adapts itself to group norms, Fi is the function more likely to challenge them on principle. Ti (inferior Fe) just rejects (or is oblivious) to them.

 

[violet_crown]

That cocksure demeanor combined with asocial eyes is peculiar to INTJs. Like "hurry up with that damn picture, you're wasting my precious time".

INTPs usually look friendlier and more reachable.

Besides his quotes are almost comically arrogant. Like someone read up on the definition and decided to personify it, in much the same manner as a person might try to use their new word in a sentence.

I'd forgive a man all manner of sins if he had hands that looked like Bobby Fischer's.

 

[Rasofy]

I'd forgive a man all manner of sins if he had hands that looked like Bobby Fischer's.

*searches*

Mmm, I think my hands are pretty similar.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Why has this thread made me think of Seinfeld all of a sudden?

 

[Cellmold]

I'd forgive a man all manner of sins if he had hands that looked like Bobby Fischer's.

Like anti-semitism, for example, or an admiration of hitler.

Then again it depends on what someone thinks a sin actually is. More than anything though I think his life was tragic. Like any person who find themselves both highly intelligent and focused intensely on one area of interest.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Then again it depends on what someone thinks a sin actually is. More than anything though I think his life was tragic. Like any person who find themselves both highly intelligent and focused intensely on one area of interest.

To be fair, focusing intensely on many areas of interests has its own problems.