• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Edward Snowden

What Personality Type is Edward Snowden?

  • ENFP

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ENFJ

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ENTJ

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ISFP

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ISFJ

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ESFP

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ESFJ

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ISTP

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ESTP

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ESTJ

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2w1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2w3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3w2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3w4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4w3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4w5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6w7

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 7w6

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 7w8

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 8w7

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 8w9

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 9w8

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
What an oddball group of thinkers you are. No wonder where the opportunity presents you'll claim no four letter code truly represent a a person. When one of your number "proves" a type fits, the whole proof could fit anyone. Can generalise, is detached, waits, chooses strategy, and in an interview where he's asked questions, he informs. Gold star.
...
we must picture a, man whose constant aim -- in so far, of course, as he is a [p. 435] pure type

No one is a pure type. The Dude himself said that there's no such thing as a pure type - outside an asylum.

Therefore, even if you could demonstrate Snowden using Te, so what? Any moron can use Te, and in a sysadmin it's essential. It's funny how often INTJs accuse INTPs of hair-splitting, given their own tendency to examine minutiae and miss the big picture. Instead of scrutinising his every word like he is the new Messiah, you have to look at the pattern of his speech, his interaction style, the pattern of his actions, the pattern of his life choices. These scream ITP to me and near everyone else without an anti-INTP bias. You have to ask yourself why you are so resistant to the inevitable.

You seem unwilling/unable to demonstrate your reasoning beyond quoting reams of Jung and asserting "he seems like this to me". I will take your quotes and show you how Snowden uses introverted thinking above the other kind:
Jung on Ti said:
This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear.
So, what is a subjective conclusion appears as objective fact to the Ti-dom at times, who may state it in such terms.
For Snowden, the NSA "broke" democracy. That this isn't actually an objective truth seems to be clearer to you (the INTJ) than it is to the INTPs, who follow his logic completely. In fact, you spelled this out, but put the wrong spin on it. You interpreted it as symbolic and visionary. For you, the "real threat" is yet to occur and can only be revealed at this point by Ni "vision", for Snowden, the INTP, it has already happened.

Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake
This is what he did. He observed the instances of NSA misconduct, formulated a theory about how/why this happens, what it leads to and what might halt it, and then acted in harmony with that theory. He "opened up prospects and yielded insights" - that's EXACTLY what he did. He collected facts, instances of "abuses", not because they were important in themselves, but because they illustrated the problems with POLICY -the pattern of wrong-doing he'd observed and the root cause he'd identified -that made such things inevitable.

[of Te] "as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, "
...much as you have been doing here.
"so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, "
Actually what you accused Snowden of doing here....
They look like pre-established conclusions. What INTP will set themselves up like that?
by contrast, there's dominant extroverted thinking, which sounds like:

"This type of man gives the deciding voice-not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage-"
What universe do you inhabit that allows you to see this kind of dogmatism in Ed "the people must decide" Snowden?
 
A

Anew Leaf

Guest
When you're a member and you have been for a while, and you look around the forum, you see things that may be disturbing. For instance, INTPs. Over the course of a normal life you might only see one or two of these... people. But when you see everything, every hair splitting pointless argument they do, you recognise that some of these things are actually characteristic patterns. Or, "abuses." And when you talk to people about them in a place like this where this is the normal state of practice, people tend not to take them very seriously. They think no one can see characteristic patterns, there's no four letter code that tells you everything, and you just have to wait and see. But over time that awareness of fundamental naysaying, of that characteristic urge to stop action and tell people, no, you're not quite right because... sort of builds up, and you feel compelling to talk about it. But the more you talk about it, the more you're ignored, until later when they pile on to find new ways to say no. Eventually you realise that these things need to be determined by competent adults, not by some INTP who'll find a new way to say no before committing to action, even to the extent they sort of believe saying no is action.

INTPs are literally why we can't have nice things. They'll step up to say it's amusing you think it's nice, but here's a small part of what you said and how it adds up to something different, so the nice thing is some kind of joke on you, sorry.

*frames*
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,449
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Where is Snowden's post?

The mods removed it because they didn't want to face the wrath of the NSA, but luckily, I saved it in notepad, anticipating that this might happen.

Snowden said:
Hey guys, I just wanted to weigh in on the situation. I'm definitely an INTP. I've taken the offical MBTI 5 times and have gotten INTP each time. In addition, I identify with INTPs way more then INTJs. Anyway, I'm sorry I can't post more, but I kind of have other things to worry about right now, you know?

Snowden is a confirmed INTP. Period.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
The mods removed it because they didn't want to face the wrath of the NSA, but luckily, I saved it in notepad, anticipating that this might happen.
Does the smoking gun really need to be a mushroom cloud?

What a bunch of jokers on the internet think about Snowden doesn't mean jack shit. It's not "confirmation."
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
In two lengthy posts of that most irritating of INTP habits, the tendency to coerce facts into the shape of their thinking's image, one section, and one alone, stands out as potentially objective:

Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake

This is what he did. He observed the instances of NSA misconduct, formulated a theory about how/why this happens, what it leads to and what might halt it, and then acted in harmony with that theory. He "opened up prospects and yielded insights" - that's EXACTLY what he did. He collected facts, instances of "abuses", not because they were important in themselves, but because they illustrated the problems with POLICY -the pattern of wrong-doing he'd observed and the root cause he'd identified -that made such things inevitable.

I'm pretty sure you're missing the meaning of "reserved demeanour", but the interpretation certainly is plausible.

So: http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/06/14/meet-teenaged-edward-snowden-aka-the-true-hooha/

“I can’t hope to change the way things are going by overtly complaining, writing letters, or blowing things up,” Snowden wrote in 2003 in response to a discussion about corporate greed on the Ars Technica online forum.

“That’s not the way a good person does things. I will, however, do what I can with the tools that are available to me.”


And further: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-snowdens-life-on-ars-technica/

re: #arsificial

It was an online destination Snowden would return to dozens of times over the next four years, often remaining quiet for hours on end before engaging in bursts of dialogue. The chat snippets show a strident personality, and at times, the inchoate ideology of a man who would ultimately take drastic measures to fight government secrecy. In #arsificial, Snowden was frequently someone ready to go to the mat for his beliefs—even when no one was on his side.
And he could be abrasive. Snowden didn't short stocks just to make money—he did it because it was the right thing to do. He saw himself as a paladin of the markets, bringing "liquidity" to all. As for those who didn't agree with him about the rightness of the gold standard or the need to eliminate Social Security, they weren't just mistaken—they were "retards."

Four years ago, Snowden presented an image of always being sure of himself, sometimes to the point of seeming arrogant. He often thought he was the smartest guy in the room, and he let others know it.

And: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/3/

Snowden may have leaned libertarian on some issues, but he also exhibited strong support for America's security state apparatus. He didn't just work for it as a quiet dissident. Four years before he would leak the country's secrets, Snowden was cheering its actions and insisting that it needed healthy funding. To anyone who questioned US actions in his favored online hangout, he could be derisive.

And he liked the allcaps.

But also:

The chats make clear that what Snowden discovered while working for the government felt so deeply wrong to him that he had a major change of heart. While there was no "one moment," seeing officials lie about these omniscient spying programs over a period of years pushed him over the edge. "It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress—and therefore the American people," Snowden said in an online chat last week. "Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."

And then:

Snowden suggested during his Q&A last week that he was waiting for Obama to bring change to the surveillance state. Clearly, even more than halfway through the first term of the Obama presidency, Snowden was a wholly different person than he is today. Whatever happened during those four years, it resulted in profound disillusionment. Snowden ultimately reached the decision to throw away the life he knew and to reveal the truth about NSA spying programs.

So...
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Policy, Policy, Policy...

And the months ahead, the years ahead, it's only gonna get worse. Until eventually there will be a time where, uh, policies will change, because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy. Even our agreements with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather than a stipulation of law. And because of that, a new leader will be elected, they'll flip the switch, uh, say that, um, because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, y'know, some, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it, uh, and it'll be turn-the-key tyranny.

Yeah so, in his words, he came forward over NSA policy or NSA practice? Or is it state practice? Or is it none of them, since he's talking about a future that's guaranteed where there is popular inaction? If he's talking about the hidden policies of the NSA that are different from the policies presently written down, why doesn't he focus on that? Why is he all about the coming practice?

So, that's what INTPs do? They hide their sense of where the basic error resides and they talk about maybe futures instead? Sitting right out in front of the media is perhaps the wrong time to use Behind The Scenes interaction style, but he can't help himself, right? Even now, he's still looking for new possibilities by throwing out scary possibilities like tyranny so he can see what people argue back?

That actually is probably why I haven't seen INTP here. To have Snowden be INTP offends any number of aesthetic and ethical sensibilities because it seems to me there are basic elements to his performance you have to remove first, the biggest one being conviction.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,449
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
INTPs can have convictions. They're just usually hidden. You've really never seen an INTP express a concern for morality?
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
They seem frequently to express concern for norms of respect and the institutional structures that arrange people in relationship to one another. Sexism, for instance, is a popular board topic with TPs and FJs. Innate, objective characteristics of people and persons in general go on to prove what laws and conditions of behavior are currently wrong or poorly practiced. And other stuff that keeps sounding quite rigid.

But as for personal conviction, no, not a lot of that. Conviction, where it exists, appears rendered in terms of the objective and impersonal, and doesn't look like conviction. It looks like trying to make rules outside of yourself.

And not a drop of that kind of talk appears present in the Snowball.
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
attachment.php
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I'm sorry children, it's been resolved:

A 2002 profile he posted on the defunct anime site Ryuhana Press reveals Snowden’s obsession with anime.

INTJ.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
So...what?

I'm pretty sure you're missing the meaning of "reserved demeanour",
You're pretty sure of something you're completely wrong about.
Quelle surprise.
That actually is probably why I haven't seen INTP here. To have Snowden be INTP offends any number of aesthetic and ethical sensibilities because it seems to me there are basic elements to his performance you have to remove first, the biggest one being conviction.
That confirms my conviction that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I imagine it would, and yet... are you aware you have a really strong tendency to alter the meaning of presented information? That presumably is a product of "conviction", or determined belief, but it fits really well with that Jung comment about coercing facts. It's particularly evident that the reasoning involved is not extroverted thinking. This is something of an eye-opener, and it seems to me not actually a fault, however destructive of discussion it can be. So, here we are, again.

I can't imagine what you're seeing, or what anyone is seeing to let them say INTP. The self-aware INTP is the typological unicorn, but suddenly here you all are stepping up and definitively identifying one of their own based on........ similarity?

Yeah, that, and this coercion of facts thing, they don't sit entirely well together.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
As opposed to your reasoning. Which is "hidden" (generously) or non-existent (likely). It's certainly not consistent.

You imagined something you said would support a conviction of mine which you claim is impossible for my type to have? Well. That makes about as much sense as anything else you've written in this thread.

In fact you are just throwing "facts" and hoping they stick to your own convictions. Show your working, instead of just your blind prejudice, if you can, and we might listen.

Or else show how I have "coerced facts". Show me SOME DAMNED THING. Or don't. Just accept that you have your convictions and we have ours and never the twain.
 
Top