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Poll: What Personality Type is Edward Snowden?

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Thread: Edward Snowden

  1. #31
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Dumb is never reassuring.
    When someone is doing something you think is wrong, would you prefer they be intelligent and clever about it, thereby getting it accomplished and keeping it a secret to boot? Or would you prefer they be dumb, clumsy, and inept enough to make little headway, or at least to get exposed for what they are? NSA may not be dumb enough to do the former, but as we see, they have done the latter. Now are the rest of us going to be dumb enough to tolerate it?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #32
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    When someone is doing something you think is wrong, would you prefer they be intelligent and clever about it, thereby getting it accomplished and keeping it a secret to boot? Or would you prefer they be dumb, clumsy, and inept enough to make little headway, or at least to get exposed for what they are? NSA may not be dumb enough to do the former, but as we see, they have done the latter. Now are the rest of us going to be dumb enough to tolerate it?
    Looks like it...

    You present a false dichotomy. What you really have is the worst features of both: people dumb enough to make headway.

    Personally, I prefer it when my security service is...secure. But I'm eccentric like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    "It becomes a thing of these people are against the country or against the government. But I'm not. I'm, I'm no different from anybody else, I don't have special skills, uh, I'm just another guy who sits there, day to day, in the office, watches what hap-what's happening and goes, this is not something that's our place to decide, the public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong."

    The video is edited, but all he does is talk of hidden worldly mechanisms about which he has formed overview conclusions. Plainly, all he's done is taken a moral position, but he frames it as being of universal interest and validity.
    If it were not of universal interest, we wouldn't be sitting here, talking about him. He isn't a crank, he's a whistle-blower. There's a difference.
    Pick an INTJ that doesn't communicate this way every time they open their mouths.
    I can't think of any that underplay their skill-set or knowledge-base, frankly.
    In all likelihood, NTJs are running the show at the NSA, and thinking that the "turnkey" is safer in their hands than anyone else's, much as Coriolis suggested earlier. INTJs quite simply don't seem to experience this kind of crisis of conscience. It's too much like self-doubt.

    The easy accusations of paranoia that come to INTJs all the time? They're a product of this kind of presentation. So the style he appears to display resonates for me.
    He's not paranoid though. You are. :P
    Sorry, you can't have him just to up the sexiness quotient of the TJs. He's mine.
    "The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing'll change."
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #33
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You present a false dichotomy. What you really have is the worst features of both: people dumb enough to make headway.

    Personally, I prefer it when my security service is...secure. But I'm eccentric like that.
    I'm presenting opposite ends of a spectrum. Security is all well and good, but as Ben Franklin pointed out years ago, in a democracy it cannot come at the cost of liberty. If our security establishment is going to be overstepping in this regard, I prefer it have enough imperfections that we get to learn what is going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I can't think of any that underplay their skill-set or knowledge-base, frankly.

    In all likelihood, NTJs are running the show at the NSA, and thinking that the "turnkey" is safer in their hands than anyone else's, much as Coriolis suggested earlier. INTJs quite simply don't seem to experience this kind of crisis of conscience. It's too much like self-doubt.
    I'm sure I'm not the only INTJ to downplay my skill set. It can be useful to be underestimated at times. Yes, I can see INTJs thinking that the turnkey is not only safest but put to best effect in our hands. An INTJ who is disillusioned with the system, however, and thinks it is headed in quite the wrong direction is just as likely to gain possession of the turnkey to force a major change or cripple the system. That was not done in this case. Not proof positive that Snowden is not INTJ, but I've already stated I agree with INTP for him, as it fits more of the evidence to date.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #34
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If it were not of universal interest, we wouldn't be sitting here, talking about him. He isn't a crank, he's a whistle-blower. There's a difference.
    This too is why you can't have him. He doesn't appear to run everything through the "objectively" filter. The only content he offers up as "objective" is his descriptions of how the NSA operates. The rest he claims to leave up to "the public", and he doesn't offer any obvious claim about what they must decide. *He* says *he* thinks abuses exist.

    I can't think of any that underplay their skill-set or knowledge-base, frankly.
    It's a vital technique for demonstrating that crazy visions are real. Unless you're aiming to exclude others from control of facilities or operations, then proving you're right by claiming superior competence or intelligence is teh fail. Mystery insight has to be tagged "normal" in some way.

    In all likelihood, NTJs are running the show at the NSA, and thinking that the "turnkey" is safer in their hands than anyone else's, much as Coriolis suggested earlier.
    Probably. I don't know much about him, but Keith Alexander seems like one of our operatives too.

    INTJs quite simply don't seem to experience this kind of crisis of conscience. It's too much like self-doubt.
    Ha.

    If INTJs tended to personally align themselves with their organizations, then yes.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #35
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    INT is obvious to me. My first impression was INTJ and I still think that's most likely. I haven't seen enough to rule out INTP though.

  6. #36
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    After learning about the data that the sysadmins who were subcontracted out to the NSA had access to due to a previous job he had at the CIA or somesuch, Snowden took a *huge* risk and got a job with that subcontractor for the sole purpose of stealing the data. Nearly as soon as he got this job, he leaked the data.

    Who here besides ISTP has an appetite for such risk? Obviously I am biased, but I can at least imagine this

  7. #37
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    This too is why you can't have him. He doesn't appear to run everything through the "objectively" filter. The only content he offers up as "objective" is his descriptions of how the NSA operates. The rest he claims to leave up to "the public", and he doesn't offer any obvious claim about what they must decide. *He* says *he* thinks abuses exist.
    Oh look: you even provided the reason why:
    Unless you're aiming to exclude others from control of facilities or operations, then proving you're right by claiming superior competence or intelligence is teh fail.
    It's a vital technique for demonstrating that crazy visions are real.
    Again, no "crazy visions" required. He has evidence. There is no mystery. Not anymore, at least.
    And I didn't say I didn't understand the technique, I said I haven't see an INTJ use it: it requires the capacity to suppress one's ego.

    Probably. I don't know much about him, but Keith Alexander seems like one of our operatives too.
    I'll let you have that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #38
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    Could you send me that by mobile phone text?

    As for Ed. I'm on INTP for this one.
    'Consciousness is not simply a sensory-perceptual affair, a matter of mental imagery, as the contents of our mind would have us believe. It is deeply enmeshed with the brain mechanisms that automatically promote action readiness' - Jaak Panksepp

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #39
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Oh look: you even provided the reason why:

    Again, no "crazy visions" required. He has evidence. There is no mystery. Not anymore, at least.
    Evidence that he says calls for interpretation. The public is supposed to decide something. I haven't heard or read everything he's said, but does he ever talk about principles being violated?

    I still don't see where anyone's getting INTP. They might as well be getting DERP for all the connection they've made between what he has been seen to do and the common behavior of a type. *I* say, he talks of hidden mechanisms, he requires other people make some moral determination about those mechanisms, and he has an opinion already that he thinks mandated pushing the moral question out to everyone else. *And* he appears to know a lot of other things. That wealth of hidden background would ordinarily appear as ponderous conspiracy theory, but here apparently it's okay because NSA.

    He looks like he's doing what every INTJ does. That the hidden conspiracy is real at least as far as mechanism goes, and is also compelling for *some* people, is what lets him, this time, not be the Unabomber. Frankly, what traits not merely tangentially related to the INTP type does he display at all?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #40
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    *I* say, he talks of hidden mechanisms, he requires other people make some moral determination about those mechanisms, and he has an opinion already that he thinks mandated pushing the moral question out to everyone else. *And* he appears to know a lot of other things. That wealth of hidden background would ordinarily appear as ponderous conspiracy theory, but here apparently it's okay because NSA.

    Again: it's an exposé, not a conspiracy theory. He isn't hiding anything; he's leaking it. He isn't blowing up his part and lecturing with the grandiose pomposity of the average INTJ, he's just stating the facts. Obviously, he has an opinion, he's just not arrogant enough to believe it's the only one that counts.

    The public is supposed to decide something. I haven't heard or read everything he's said, but does he ever talk about principles being violated?
    "I don't want to live in a society that does these sorts of things"

    It's common for INTPs to be more certain about what they don't want/ aren't prepared to tolerate, than what they do. He knows that he doesn't want to live in a society full of hypocrites and slaves, but he doesn't necessarily have an overarching vision for some sublime Utopia either. Or put another way, he defines Utopia by what it doesn't contain, rather that what it does.
    The INTJ stipulates the world he wants to live in; the INTP the world he does not.

    Ni supplies a singular "perfect" vision, and Te the means to accomplish it. There is a narrowness of focus and rigidity of purpose.
    Ne supplies endless possible states and Ti tests and eliminates those that won't work because they violate some core principle or are inconsistent in some other way. Negative capability:-
    " the ability to tolerate the pain and confusion of not knowing, rather than imposing ready-made or omnipotent certainties upon an ambiguous situation "
    Snowden has this in spades. It informs his political ideals as well as his personal life choices. It's anti-J. (Or P, more concisely. )

    He recognises that the NSA's method of snooping is both "the most efficient" and an "abuse". Isn't that like, an oxymoron for an INTJ? Je is all about ends justifying means.

    Snowden doesn't trust authority - not even his own. The fact that he was authorised to spy on the President on the flimsiest of pretexts, frightened him. Whoever said "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" - I'm thinking it wasn't an NTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Snowden
    "No one can meaningfully oppose them. But at the same time you have to make a determination about what's important to you."

    "You could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon, but that's not my intention."

    "If you can live unfreely [sic], but comfortably (and I think many people can - it's human nature)..."

    "But if you realise that that's the world you helped create, and it's only going to get worse with the next generation's capability to extend this Architecture of Oppression....then you realise you're prepared to accept any risk, and it doesn't matter what the outcome is, so long as the public gets to makes its own decision."
    Could he be less INTJ?

    The INTP is as reluctant to impose his will on others as he is to have others impose their will on him. Both attitudes inform Snowden's actions. He can simultaneously believe/fear that his actions will have no lasting legacy, yet still be convinced it's the right thing to do: ends are largely irrelevant.

    He doesn't press his vision upon the world, because he recognises that his is only one perspective (Pe) all the while being convinced of its subjective rightness (Ji). He distinguishes between moral absolutes and technical facts. He collects and presents those facts and allows others to draw their own conclusions without trying to get in the way of that process any more than is necessary (also known as Informative vs Directive). His own conclusions coupled with his disposition create a moral imperative which has dictated the course of the rest of his life, but he doesn't actively intervene to destroy the system he despises (as you suggest an INTJ would). He does however, subvert it. He allows a more informed public to decide their own fate, while his lack of faith in human nature guarantees his retreat, rather than than trust his own fate to others.

    Come now. You know it makes sense. You're infatuated with an INTP. It happens.
    We are kind of wonderful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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