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Poll: What Personality Type is Edward Snowden?

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Thread: Edward Snowden

  1. #91
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Ed Snowden seems quixotic to me in the way of Inferior Fe. And just wook at that widdle face. :3
    Yup. Quixotic is very INTP.
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  2. #92
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Also, "sort of" - what's with the constant inclusion of "sort of"? That'll be that INTP precision with language, I bet. Sort of.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Well he's been called terrorist and traitor, why not INTP too.
    I knew you'd come round eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  4. #94
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I say his choice of subject matter and the manner in which he expresses it point to cognitive style. He talks hidden mechanisms of the real world and future consequence. He says:

    "When you're in positions of privileged access, like a systems administrator for these sort of intelligence community agencies, you're exposed to a lot more information on a broader scale than the average employee, and because of that you SEE things that, uh, may be disturbing, but over the course of a normal person's career, you'd only SEE one or two of these instances. Uh, when you SEE EVERYTHING, you see them on a more frequent basis, and you RECOGNISE that some of these things are actually abuses, and when you talk to people about them..."

    See, see, recognise, talk to other people to confirm. (And then get rebuffed and make your own choice.) If he ever anywhere says even one instance of "when you stop and think about it" or "it follows that" or "because of this non-contingent principle we all understand as true", then he's a damn terrorist for sure.
    My take (and I say this in full recognition of my own cognitive biases) is that the emphasis is not so much the seeing as what is seen. I'm not sure where the idea that Ti rests on non-contingent principles comes from, but it doesn't speak to my observations of Ti-doms. Thinking regardless of its attitude is data driven. INTPs, from my understanding of them, are relational databases on legs, which is why they're so definition oriented. Given access to a large enough dataset (the very position Snowden seems to be saying he was in), they are capable of seeing patterns of connectedness not only within that data universe, but elsewhere depending on how knowledgeable the INTP in question is. So if Snowden had access to data from Projects A, B, C, and D when others might have only been siloed into one of those projects (and being a former BAH employee myself, can certainly attest to the possibility), he could connect the dots to see a picture that looked a helluva lot like the US government doing massive, unwarranted data pulls on its own citizens.


    If he sought asylum *before* becoming a whistle blower, he'd need some other reason to be accepted. He was being neither persecuted nor threatened before he made himself famous, so what would his grounds for asylum have been? That he was a spy who could spill lots of secrets for you, foreign government? And that's what he wanted?
    Again, I'm assuming that anyone that was planning to expose a top secret government program probably planned out how he'd go about it a bit before blowing the thing open. What I'm arguing is that the more tactical focus in his planning on method (e.g., how to extract credible data to provide to the press) rather than strategy (e.g., what long-term political change he meant to effect, and how to ensure the actualization of that aim) says that he was probably a TP rather than a TJ. Obviously, no one is gonna seek asylum if they're just living their lives, but a guy planning to do what he did had beyond compelling reasons to get his ducks in a row. And with the information he had, he had the leverage to make people in high places listen to what he had to say. Even lacking access initially, an NTJ would have seen the necessity of creating that opportunity as just basic due diligence.

    If Snowden had wanted to be a martyr, he wouldn't have fled to Hong Kong. Hong Kong in particular is the kind of half-cocked shit that I could except from some technically brilliant, but politically less than astute INTP, but would never buy from an equally brilliant INTJ. At least not at face value.
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  5. #95
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    My take (and I say this in full recognition of my own cognitive biases) is that the emphasis is not so much the seeing as what is seen. I'm not sure where the idea that Ti rests on non-contingent principles comes from, but it doesn't speak to my observations of Ti-doms. Thinking regardless of its attitude is data driven. INTPs, from my understanding of them, are relational databases on legs, which is why they're so definition oriented.
    Yeah but:

    This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear

    Where Jung says "external facts" I'm saying "contingent". The fact they don't get anywhere without data does NOT stop them inventing subjective principles that account for data and calling these principles "objective", or free from feeling (and the outside world). Like when they make definitions rather than usage define the meaning of a word.

    Given access to a large enough dataset (the very position Snowden seems to be saying he was in), they are capable of seeing patterns of connectedness not only within that data universe, but elsewhere depending on how knowledgeable the INTP in question is. So if Snowden had access to data from Projects A, B, C, and D when others might have only been siloed into one of those projects (and being a former BAH employee myself, can certainly attest to the possibility), he could connect the dots to see a picture that looked a helluva lot like the US government doing massive, unwarranted data pulls on its own citizens.
    Sounds entirely reasonable. But patterns of connectedness--and imma just make this up right now--patterns alone don't say INTP until the person starts making theories out of them. INTP connectedness splits hairs. As in: this thing we are interested in could have its origin in this other thing or process, therefore we need some better, more refined principle that excludes or rises above this other influence before we can properly formulate what the first thing was. Or so I imagine the weirdos to think. It's not like they ever know enough to spell their own processes out. Does Snowball demonstrate that kind of thinking? I don't even know because I can't spot it and the INTPs have no idea how to spell it out like real people so pffft, he doesn't.

    Again, I'm assuming that anyone that was planning to expose a top secret government program probably planned out how he'd go about it a bit before blowing the thing open. What I'm arguing is that the more tactical focus in his planning on method (e.g., how to extract credible data to provide to the press) rather than strategy (e.g., what long-term political change he meant to effect, and how to ensure the actualization of that aim) says that he was probably a TP rather than a TJ. Obviously, no one is gonna seek asylum if they're just living their lives, but a guy planning to do what he did had beyond compelling reasons to get his ducks in a row. And with the information he had, he had the leverage to make people in high places listen to what he had to say. Even lacking access initially, an NTJ would have seen the necessity of creating that opportunity as just basic due diligence.
    One suggestion is that he got caught out by culture shock. He may have planned it all out, but then when he finally got to Hong Kong, got famous, and started talking to Hong Kong lawyers, their approach to his security scared him. Apparently Hong Kong lawyer culture is very different from American lawyer culture. In HK they tell you everything that can go wrong. They try to scare you. And then everything usually turns out okay. Or so I read someone say.

    So he made a dumb white guy mistake while trying to walk an international political high wire.... or maybe there was some other reason for leaving so soon. Dunno.

    If Snowden had wanted to be a martyr, he wouldn't have fled to Hong Kong. Hong Kong in particular is the kind of half-cocked shit that I could except from some technically brilliant, but politically less than astute INTP, but would never buy from an equally brilliant INTJ. At least not at face value.
    I don't know enough about world politics, but is there any other location he could have come out of the closet and still been able to sit pretty? What other location offers any kind of balance to US interests but doesn't also put him right in the hands of foreign powers? I dunno. Maybe there was a better place to go.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #96
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Yeah but:

    This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear

    Where Jung says "external facts" I'm saying "contingent". The fact they don't get anywhere without data does NOT stop them inventing subjective principles that account for data and calling these principles "objective", or free from feeling (and the outside world). Like when they make definitions rather than usage define the meaning of a word.



    Sounds entirely reasonable. But patterns of connectedness--and imma just make this up right now--patterns alone don't say INTP until the person starts making theories out of them. INTP connectedness splits hairs. As in: this thing we are interested in could have its origin in this other thing or process, therefore we need some better, more refined principle that excludes or rises above this other influence before we can properly formulate what the first thing was. Or so I imagine the weirdos to think. It's not like they ever know enough to spell their own processes out. Does Snowball demonstrate that kind of thinking? I don't even know because I can't spot it and the INTPs have no idea how to spell it out like real people so pffft, he doesn't.
    So, in other words:

    1) INTPs tend to make shit up
    2) What Snowden said was true
    3) Therefore, Snowden is not INTP

    Gotcha.


    I don't know enough about world politics, but is there any other location he could have come out of the closet and still been able to sit pretty? What other location offers any kind of balance to US interests but doesn't also put him right in the hands of foreign powers? I dunno. Maybe there was a better place to go.
    I suppose I'm just jaded. I would look at a project like PRISM, see the players involved, and ask myself what I could reasonably hope to accomplish by exposing it. You point at the man behind the curtain, and he's just gonna end up getting thicker drapes. If I felt so deeply opposed to what I was doing, I'd just opt out, I guess. That's Inferior Fi talking, though. I suppose my question is does having Fi in the tertiary position make that big of a difference? If so, then there's more daylight between myself and my introverted counterparts than I'd guessed up until now. I just had always assumed that when I saw one of you make an effectively meaningless gesture, it was because I wasn't in on the joke, not that you actually thought it made a difference to that one starfish.
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  7. #97
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    So, in other words:

    1) INTPs tend to make shit up
    2) What Snowden said was true
    3) Therefore, Snowden is not INTP

    Gotcha.
    They refine shit up. But what he said doesn't appear to include any refining words. I don't hear him speaking like an INTP. Therefore, not an INTP.

    (Bonus hidden premise: my visceral reaction to suggestions he could be one - there's just something untrue about the thought - which I probably still feeeel, but I'd have to watch the video again)

    I suppose I'm just jaded. I would look at a project like PRISM, see the players involved, and ask myself what I could reasonably hope to accomplish by exposing it. You point at the man behind the curtain, and he's just gonna end up getting thicker drapes. If I felt so deeply opposed to what I was doing, I'd just opt out, I guess. That's Inferior Fi talking, though. I suppose my question is does having Fi in the tertiary position make that big of a difference? If so, then there's more daylight between myself and my introverted counterparts than I'd guessed up until now. I just had always assumed that when I saw one of you make an effectively meaningless gesture, it was because I wasn't in on the joke, not that you actually thought it made a difference to that one starfish.
    He wasn't even middle management. Yet he had all this access. The gesture rebalances the universe.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #98
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Sometimes seeing is just, you know, seeing, like with your eyes, not some spooky Ni BS.

    He saw some stuff that he recognised was illegal and some other stuff that probably should be.
    He told someone.
    End of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    They refine shit up. But what he said doesn't appear to include any refining words. I don't hear him speaking like an INTP. Therefore, not an INTP.

    (Bonus hidden premise: my visceral reaction to suggestions he could be one - there's just something untrue about the thought - which I probably still feeeel, but I'd have to watch the video again)
    It's a pity you can't refine your own shit up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's not like they ever know enough to spell their own processes out. Does Snowball demonstrate that kind of thinking? I don't even know because I can't spot it and the INTPs have no idea how to spell it out like real people so pffft, he doesn't.
    Right. We're the ones who don't know how to spell things out but instead rely on visceral reactions and convictions that appear fully formed from the ether without any supporting evidence or reasoning.

    Here's an INTJ-flavoured "whistle-blower" for you. Note the self-aggrandisement. The apocalyptic visions. The paranoia. The verbosity. The inability to communicate like a human being. The dogmatism. The contingency planning! The follow through.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #99
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Sometimes seeing is just, you know, seeing, like with your eyes, not some spooky Ni BS.

    He saw some stuff that he recognised was illegal and some other stuff that probably should be.
    He told someone.
    End of story.
    It's a pity you can't refine your own shit up.


    Right. We're the ones who don't know how to spell things out but instead rely on visceral reactions and convictions that appear fully formed from the ether without any supporting evidence or reasoning.

    Here's an INTJ-flavoured "whistle-blower" for you. Note the self-aggrandisement. The apocalyptic visions. The paranoia. The verbosity. The inability to communicate like a human being. The dogmatism. The contingency planning! The follow through.
    I hope I don't have to take this as demonstration of the INTP positive action approach. The statement of what would constitute a definitive typing still hasn't appeared. And yet this INTP Snowden has been seeing things and acting? Apparently he recognizes something was illegal and was able to make claims. Probably had a clean desk too.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #100
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Probably had a clean desk too.
    He does now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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