Eminem?

[raskol]

I'm arguing from actually looking at Eminem and comparing to archetypal features of type.

How does archetype inform us in this case?

However correlations are insufficient compared with actually observing a person.

This cryptic turn of phrase intrigues me. Does it involve some kind of process beyond behavioral observation?

 

[Pionart]

How does archetype inform us in this case?

I mean, if you have a conceptualisation of what Ni looks like, then you can look at a person and determine whether they're matching up to that or not. I mean that it's a process of comparing ideas with appearance.

This cryptic turn of phrase intrigues me. Does it involve some kind of process beyond behavioral observation?

I mean that I'm clicking on an interview, watching how Eminem speaks etc. rather than picking out some facts about him and trying to draw correlations.

 

[Pionart]

Also, your method of looking for correlations from empirical data doesn't actually work, because your database of who's what type is inaccurate, so the correlations are invalid.

 

[raskol]

I mean, if you have a conceptualisation of what Ni looks like, then you can look at a person and determine whether they're matching up to that or not. I mean that it's a process of comparing ideas with appearance.

Oh, I thought you were referring to Jungian archetypes. Of course I apply a conception of the leading function. I've done that repeatedly with Se, especially referring to the flow and improv that is central to performative aesthetics. Ni would be at an extreme disadvantage.

I mean that I'm clicking on an interview, watching how Eminem speaks etc. rather than picking out some facts about him and trying to draw correlations.

Absolutely. Facial typing and physical presence clearly outweigh statements. I also think you should consider his voice and how poorly it fits with Ni.

 

[Pionart]

Oh, I thought you were referring to Jungian archetypes. Of course I apply a conception of the leading function. I've done that repeatedly with Se, especially referring to the flow and improv that is central to performative aesthetics. Ni would be at an extreme disadvantage.

Well, it's activating the actual archetype of the function which we have within us.

Absolutely. Facial typing and physical presence clearly outweigh statements. I also think you should consider his voice and how poorly it fits with Ni.

His voice has a notably leading quality. Yeah, there's a firmness, but to me it sounds like he has to strain to be firm...

 

[raskol]

Well, it's activating the actual archetype of the function which we have within us.

Relating to archetypes, how does Ni (Pi) fit better than Se (Pe)?

His voice has a notably leading quality. Yeah, there's a firmness, but to me it sounds like he has to strain to be firm...

Then let's agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Pionart]

Relating to archetypes, how does Ni (Pi) fit better than Se (Pe)?

Then let's agree to disagree on that point.

Like I said, the deliberateness. To me, it seems that the primary cognitive function operating is a kind of internal representation of an idea.

Eminem's typing is one of the ones that I'm most certain about, because I look through it with the INFJ lens and it all fits. A lot of people I'm not totally sure of because I can't necessarily see how it's all manifesting, it's just a suspicion, but I feel like the typing of Eminem as INFJ goes beyond a suspicion. If Eminem turned out to be an ESTP, it would shake the foundations of my basis for typing other people because it's like... if I'm got that one wrong, then I can't be too confident about the others. Whereas other typings it's like... if I'm wrong there, so what, I can adjust to that. That's probably the majority of typings because I often don't spend too much time on a typing, I just look at an interview until I'm like... yeah that fits, I'll go with that for now. Eminem is one of the music artists I've listened to the most and spent the most time thinking about.

So I guess you want something more specific than that, but typing, for me at least, is such a subjective process. It can't be too easily verbalised why a particular manifestation is indeed a manifestation of a particular cognitive function, but insofar as the approach is valid it all, it just seems like it has to be that way.

So yeah, Eminem does have a lot of Se, but to me, that's inferior Se turned way up. I can't read it as being the dominant process, it just doesn't click with my mind. The Ti... it's an INFJ's Ti of acting unaffected when you're really impassioned. It's ego NiFe, alterego TiSe, not ego TiSe, alterego NiFe.

For a more typically "NF" song from Eminem, one of the best examples is Beautiful Pain. You could say that's just the NF side of ST, because the ST-heavy stuff, if that's what it is, is the majority. So contrast with a more TiSe song - Don't Front. My claim is that's the shadow TiSe. It definitely activates my TiSe though. But generally Eminem activates my Ni. It stimulates the imagination. Eminem is imaginative. I don't think he's a "bit" imaginative, and plays it up, I think that's his primary process. The performance is a performance.

 

[tommyc]

An interesting way of testing theories on Eminem's type could be looking at those with whom he has a close personal or working relationship. That would be Kim Mathers, Dr Dre, Paul Rosenberg, Jimmy Iovine. He also acted as a mentor for 50 Cent. Just working off the principle that dominant functions attract. So were he an INFJ, it wouldnt be a surprise that he surrounded himself with fellow NFs.

(Fiddy and Dre strike me as fellow Ni doms, possibly T for Fiddy, F for Dre. Paul Rosenberg strikes me as an ENTJ. )

 

[Peter Deadpan]

When not performing and in his natural state, Eminem is actually kind of sleepy in energy, grounded, zero animation. Look up some of his interviews and it will be easy to see that his natural state is mostly Ni and Ti, with sprinkles of Fe.

 

[Pionart]

An interesting way of testing theories on Eminem's type could be looking at those with whom he has a close personal or working relationship. That would be Kim Mathers, Dr Dre, Paul Rosenberg, Jimmy Iovine. He also acted as a mentor for 50 Cent. Just working off the principle that dominant functions attract. So were he an INFJ, it wouldnt be a surprise that he surrounded himself with fellow NFs.

The problem with that though... is that he generally doesn't surround himself with other NFs. He's atypical in that regard.

 

[tommyc]

When not performing and in his natural state, Eminem is actually kind of sleepy in energy, grounded, zero animation. Look up some of his interviews and it will be easy to see that his natural state is mostly Ni and Ti, with sprinkles of Fe.

Damn Ive spent so long trying to observe his functions I cant see any functions at all any more. Like when you look at a word long enough it starts to look like gibberish.

I still cant quite see adequate Fe to satisfy me but maybe hes just SUPER defensive.

 

[Pionart]

Damn Ive spent so long trying to observe his functions I cant see any functions at all any more. Like when you look at a word long enough it starts to look like gibberish.

I still cant quite see adequate Fe to satisfy me but maybe hes just SUPER defensive.

Instead of looking for Fe, because his Fe isn't what you might expect from Fe, look for Ti.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Here is some Fe:

 

[Pionart]

Viewing Eminem as an ESTP is actually really funny. He does it so well xD

YouTube

That's not Eminem... it's Shady!

 

[tommyc]

Just watched an interview where he talked about how he memorizes hundreds of lines and rhyme schemes to put them "in storage". That could indicate Ti. So if his mind works like a mental library, and his Ti is SO strong and active, I guess it might override Fe at points. Tbh I didnt know an inferior function could override a dominant one, or that two introverted processes could be dominant.

 

[tommyc]

Here is some Fe:

I see what could be Fe here. Hes emotional but in quite an objective, selfless way rather than a subjective, 'values' way I'd associate with Fi.

So I can see the theory. Theoretically on board. It sounds simplistic but if he just smiled more my gut feeling would be satisfied too.

 

[Pionart]

Just watched an interview where he talked about how he memorizes hundreds of lines and rhyme schemes to put them "in storage". That could indicate Ti. So if his mind works like a mental library, and his Ti is SO strong and active, I guess it might override Fe at points. Tbh I didnt know an inferior function could override a dominant one, or that two introverted processes could be dominant.

Actually that's Si.

Even though it's the 8th function, INFJs, like every type, still have Si. However, information is processed through all other functions before it gets there. So the Si ends up being really specific, compared to an Si dominant who just generally remembers things.

 

[Pionart]

That's one of the problems with trying to type someone based on traits rather than how they come across directly, because we use all 8 functions. You need to really link all 8 processes together into a creative flow super-process in order for that to work.

 

[tommyc]

Yes perhaps. Could you explain why you dont think he's INTJ? Why does that seem implausible?

 

[Pionart]

That's one of the problems with trying to type someone based on traits rather than how they come across directly, because we use all 8 functions. You need to really link all 8 processes together into a creative flow super-process in order for that to work.

Ok I phrased that perhaps a bit too strongly... what I mean is that it's not just about identifying which cognitive process is involved, but what role it is playing. Which of the 8 positions is it in?