• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Who sucks?

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
I guess we just have very different standards for judging music. There's nothing special, different, creative, complex, unique about most pop music. It's made by big corporations to make money off of 12 year old girls with a big allowance.

Walk into any jazz music club, and you will find more musical talent there than in Toxic and Like A Virgin. The videos I posted take actual musical talent to play, something these pop artists don't have.

Being good at your instrument doesn't make you a great musician. Not in any way shape or form. Look, I enjoy jazz. I downloaded an Alice Coltrane album yesterday, for Christ's sake. But intricate, technically sound music is only one way of valid expression. YOU may not like Top 40 music, but that doesn't mean it isn't great. Madonna pisses all over Uggie's McSnoozefest or whoever they are.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
You can think that, but you have to agree it takes a lot of talent to play, more so than most genres.

Perhaps jazz requires a different kind of talent, but I definitely disagree that it takes more talent to play jazz than most genres. And moreover I don't agree that all jazz takes that talent.

I actually don't think ALL jazz sucks, either.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Being good at your instrument doesn't make you a great musician. Not in any way shape or form. Look, I enjoy jazz. I downloaded an Alice Coltrane album yesterday, for Christ's sake. But intricate, technically sound music is only one way of valid expression. YOU may not like Top 40 music, but that doesn't mean it isn't great. Madonna pisses all over Uggie's McSnoozefest or whoever they are.

Being a good musician takes both talent in composing and performing. Most of the people on the Top 40 can't even play an instrument, someone else makes the music and they sing or rap. It's all about image on the Top 40, let someone actually make the music.

There are great pop music producers out there, but they don't get the credit, the pretty face attached to their music does.

There is good pop music, even though I don't respect the genre, but 90% of these pop artists are not artists. Madonna is on a musical level so much lower than people like Clapton, Hendrix, the Allman brothers, even Michael Jackson.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Why do you keep talking about Top 40? That's not all "pop" is. Belle & Sebastian, Death Cab For Cutie, The Decemberists, and so on and so on are all poppy bands that aren't Top 40.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Perhaps jazz requires a different kind of talent, but I definitely disagree that it takes more talent to play jazz than most genres. And moreover I don't agree that all jazz takes that talent.

I actually don't think ALL jazz sucks, either.

I play drums and no style of drumming is harder to play than jazz. The complexity, speed, time signatures, rhythm...in jazz takes extreme talent to perform. The more complex and technical the music is, the harder it is to perform.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
I play drums and no style of drumming is harder to play than jazz. The complexity, speed, time signatures, rhythm...in jazz takes extreme talent to perform. The more complex and technical the music is, the harder it is to perform.

Oh, okay. You play drums. I guess that makes your opinion sacrosanct.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Why do you keep talking about Top 40? That's not all "pop" is. Belle & Sebastian, Death Cab For Cutie, The Decemberists, and so on and so on are all poppy bands that aren't Top 40.

Those are all indie rock/indie pop groups. A lot different than what pop music is generally considered.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Being a good musician takes both talent in composing and performing. Most of the people on the Top 40 can't even play an instrument, someone else makes the music and they sing or rap. It's all about image on the Top 40, let someone actually make the music.

I disagree. Elvis Presley never recorded a song he wrote, and he was a middling guitarist. That doesn't make him not The King. He was one of the greats. Frank Sinatra didn't play his music, either. How about Rod Stewart? Come on, man, don't be so rockist. You should have an open mind. And I appreciate producers quite a bit. Nellee Hooper, for instance, or Phil Spector, Joe Meek, Max Martin, George Martin and Geoff Emerick, Shel Talmy, Dr. Dre, The Bomb Squad, and so on. They needed The Ronettes, Snoop Dogg, Public Enemy, et al. to make the music. It's a unified whole, that ends up with the sounds we hear in our ears.

There are great pop music producers out there, but they don't get the credit, the pretty face attached to their music does.

Oh, really? See above.

There is good pop music, even though I don't respect the genre, but 90% of these pop artists are not artists. Madonna is on a musical level so much lower than people like Clapton, Hendrix, the Allman brothers, even Michael Jackson.

"I don't respect the genre" is all I really needed to hear. You can say that you don't care for something, but that is different than saying it has no merit. Also, for the record, neither Clapton nor the Allman Brothers have done anything worthwhile in over 20 years ("Tears in Heaven" excepted). Madonna can claim a lot more relevance than those two acts. And Prince is a better musician than any of those acts.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
I disagree. Elvis Presley never recorded a song he wrote, and he was a middling guitarist. That doesn't make him not The King. He was one of the greats. Frank Sinatra didn't play his music, either. How about Rod Stewart? Come on, man, don't be so rockist. You should have an open mind. And I appreciate producers quite a bit. Nellee Hooper, for instance, or Phil Spector, Joe Meek, Max Martin, George Martin and Geoff Emerick, Shel Talmy, Dr. Dre, The Bomb Squad, and so on. They needed The Ronettes, Snoop Dogg, Public Enemy, et al. to make the music. It's a unified whole, that ends up with the sounds we hear in our ears.



Oh, really? See above.



"I don't respect the genre" is all I really needed to hear. You can say that you don't care for something, but that is different than saying it has no merit. Also, for the record, neither Clapton nor the Allman Brothers have done anything worthwhile in over 20 years ("Tears in Heaven" excepted). Madonna can claim a lot more relevance than those two acts. And Prince is a better musician than any of those acts.

I don't respect that so much pop music is designed only to make money. You can understand that right? That's not what music should be about.

Elvis can be The King, but he wasn't a great artist. As for relevance, I wasn't referring to that, just talent.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
I don't respect that so much pop music is designed only to make money. You can understand that right? That's not what music should be about.

Elvis can be The King, but he wasn't a great artist. As for relevance, I wasn't referring to that, just talent.

OK, then: Prince is more talented than Clapton or the Allmans.
 

sassafrassquatch

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
961
BeatDeadHorse.gif
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
As far as drumming is concerned it does, more so than someone who doesn't play.

LOL I don't think so. Your talent is you-specific and you've trained it based on what you're most interested in playing. So you find playing jazz difficult? Interesting, I suppose, but that doesn't make it more difficult for everyone. There are jazz drummers who would have a more difficult time playing in other genres because their talent and practice is in jazz drumming. Jazz doesn't hold a monopoly on complex rhythms.

Here's another example. Suppose you have two violinists--one with a talent for bluegrass fiddlin' and one with a talent for classical violin. Each of these musicians is likely to have difficulty crossing over into the other musician's realm. Like jazz, bluegrass and classical can both be technically challenging or technically simple. The songs in each category that are technically challenging will be moreso to a musician who has not trained their talent in that specific genre.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
OK, then: Prince is more talented than Clapton or the Allmans.

At what composition or playing instruments? Purple Rain was okay, but your poppy bias is showing through. He can't play like Clapton or the Allmans could, they can't sing like he could, as for composition, that's too subjective to argue.

You can cherry pick talented pop musicians, but it doesn't say much about the music as a whole.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
LOL I don't think so. Your talent is you-specific and you've trained it based on what you're most interested in playing. So you find playing jazz difficult? Interesting, I suppose, but that doesn't make it more difficult for everyone. There are jazz drummers who would have a more difficult time playing in other genres because their talent and practice is in jazz drumming. Jazz doesn't hold a monopoly on complex rhythms.

Here's another example. Suppose you have two violinists--one with a talent for bluegrass fiddlin' and one with a talent for classical violin. Each of these musicians is likely to have difficulty crossing over into the other musician's realm. Like jazz, bluegrass and classical can both be technically challenging or technically simple. The songs in each category that are technically challenging will be moreso to a musician who has not trained their talent in that specific genre.

Any jazz drummer can play a typical 4-bar blues rhythm, a hip-hop beat, a hard-rock rhythm...they are simple and easy to play. Jazz drumming is consistently more complex than any other popular genre I can think of.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
At what composition or play instruments? Purple Rain was okay, but your poppy bias is showing through. He can't play like Clapton or the Allmans could, they can't sing like he could, as for composition, that's too subjective to argue.

You can cherry pick talented pop musicians, but it doesn't say much about the music as a whole.

Actually, Prince is one of the greatest guitarists alive, and he can play almost any instrument very well (except for drums, I believe). He is a superior vocalist to Clapton, for sure. And he wrote almost all of the music and lyrics on all of his albums, which are much more consistently great than Clapton or the Allmans.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Actually, Prince is one of the greatest guitarists alive, and he can play almost any instrument very well (except for drums, I believe). He is a superior vocalist to Clapton, for sure. And he wrote almost all of the music and lyrics on all of his albums, which are much more consistently great than Clapton or the Allmans.

He's not one of the greatest guitarists alive, he's decent though. But he doesn't get enough recognition for his talent with guitar.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Any jazz drummer can play a typical 4-bar blues rhythm, a hip-hop beat, a hard-rock rhythm...they are simple and easy to play. Jazz drumming is consistently more complex than any other popular genre I can think of.

Nice changing horses in midstream there. You didn't specify popular genre before. I'd like to see a jazz drummer take up a tabla or a djimbe or a Highland drum. Chances are they wouldn't be any good at it at first, much like an exclusively Indian or African or Irish drummer wouldn't be any good at jazz drumming at first, either.

In any case, I do not personally buy "talent" as the top criteria for not-sucking. As you imply here, blues is not very complex and blues musicians don't have to have a lot of technical know-how, and many blues themes are recycled over and over again, but not many people would argue that blues sucks because of this. And yet, that's your argument about pop.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Nice changing horses in midstream there. You didn't specify popular genre before. I'd like to see a jazz drummer take up a tabla or a djimbe or a Highland drum. Chances are they wouldn't be any good at it at first, much like an exclusively Indian or African or Irish drummer wouldn't be any good at jazz drumming at first, either.

In any case, I do not personally buy "talent" as the top criteria for not-sucking. As you imply here, blues is not very complex and blues musicians don't have to have a lot of technical know-how, and many blues themes are recycled over and over again, but not many people would argue that blues sucks because of this. And yet, that's your argument about pop.

There are lots of complex percussion styles outside of jazz, but a good jazz drummer will have an easier time learning new complex styles than the average drummer of other genres, because their style already requires complex playing to begin with.

Talent isn't just about being able to play complex music and technical know-how. Talented pop and blues musicians know how to create good songs that lots of people will like. Without talent, you suck.
 
Top