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Thread: Who sucks?

  1. #411
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I don't respect that so much pop music is designed only to make money. You can understand that right? That's not what music should be about.

    Elvis can be The King, but he wasn't a great artist. As for relevance, I wasn't referring to that, just talent.
    OK, then: Prince is more talented than Clapton or the Allmans.
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  3. #413
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    As far as drumming is concerned it does, more so than someone who doesn't play.
    LOL I don't think so. Your talent is you-specific and you've trained it based on what you're most interested in playing. So you find playing jazz difficult? Interesting, I suppose, but that doesn't make it more difficult for everyone. There are jazz drummers who would have a more difficult time playing in other genres because their talent and practice is in jazz drumming. Jazz doesn't hold a monopoly on complex rhythms.

    Here's another example. Suppose you have two violinists--one with a talent for bluegrass fiddlin' and one with a talent for classical violin. Each of these musicians is likely to have difficulty crossing over into the other musician's realm. Like jazz, bluegrass and classical can both be technically challenging or technically simple. The songs in each category that are technically challenging will be moreso to a musician who has not trained their talent in that specific genre.
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  4. #414
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    OK, then: Prince is more talented than Clapton or the Allmans.
    At what composition or playing instruments? Purple Rain was okay, but your poppy bias is showing through. He can't play like Clapton or the Allmans could, they can't sing like he could, as for composition, that's too subjective to argue.

    You can cherry pick talented pop musicians, but it doesn't say much about the music as a whole.

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Well, as a sop to you, I love CCR.
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  6. #416
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    LOL I don't think so. Your talent is you-specific and you've trained it based on what you're most interested in playing. So you find playing jazz difficult? Interesting, I suppose, but that doesn't make it more difficult for everyone. There are jazz drummers who would have a more difficult time playing in other genres because their talent and practice is in jazz drumming. Jazz doesn't hold a monopoly on complex rhythms.

    Here's another example. Suppose you have two violinists--one with a talent for bluegrass fiddlin' and one with a talent for classical violin. Each of these musicians is likely to have difficulty crossing over into the other musician's realm. Like jazz, bluegrass and classical can both be technically challenging or technically simple. The songs in each category that are technically challenging will be moreso to a musician who has not trained their talent in that specific genre.
    Any jazz drummer can play a typical 4-bar blues rhythm, a hip-hop beat, a hard-rock rhythm...they are simple and easy to play. Jazz drumming is consistently more complex than any other popular genre I can think of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    At what composition or play instruments? Purple Rain was okay, but your poppy bias is showing through. He can't play like Clapton or the Allmans could, they can't sing like he could, as for composition, that's too subjective to argue.

    You can cherry pick talented pop musicians, but it doesn't say much about the music as a whole.
    Actually, Prince is one of the greatest guitarists alive, and he can play almost any instrument very well (except for drums, I believe). He is a superior vocalist to Clapton, for sure. And he wrote almost all of the music and lyrics on all of his albums, which are much more consistently great than Clapton or the Allmans.
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  8. #418
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Actually, Prince is one of the greatest guitarists alive, and he can play almost any instrument very well (except for drums, I believe). He is a superior vocalist to Clapton, for sure. And he wrote almost all of the music and lyrics on all of his albums, which are much more consistently great than Clapton or the Allmans.
    He's not one of the greatest guitarists alive, he's decent though. But he doesn't get enough recognition for his talent with guitar.

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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Any jazz drummer can play a typical 4-bar blues rhythm, a hip-hop beat, a hard-rock rhythm...they are simple and easy to play. Jazz drumming is consistently more complex than any other popular genre I can think of.
    Nice changing horses in midstream there. You didn't specify popular genre before. I'd like to see a jazz drummer take up a tabla or a djimbe or a Highland drum. Chances are they wouldn't be any good at it at first, much like an exclusively Indian or African or Irish drummer wouldn't be any good at jazz drumming at first, either.

    In any case, I do not personally buy "talent" as the top criteria for not-sucking. As you imply here, blues is not very complex and blues musicians don't have to have a lot of technical know-how, and many blues themes are recycled over and over again, but not many people would argue that blues sucks because of this. And yet, that's your argument about pop.
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  10. #420
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Nice changing horses in midstream there. You didn't specify popular genre before. I'd like to see a jazz drummer take up a tabla or a djimbe or a Highland drum. Chances are they wouldn't be any good at it at first, much like an exclusively Indian or African or Irish drummer wouldn't be any good at jazz drumming at first, either.

    In any case, I do not personally buy "talent" as the top criteria for not-sucking. As you imply here, blues is not very complex and blues musicians don't have to have a lot of technical know-how, and many blues themes are recycled over and over again, but not many people would argue that blues sucks because of this. And yet, that's your argument about pop.
    There are lots of complex percussion styles outside of jazz, but a good jazz drummer will have an easier time learning new complex styles than the average drummer of other genres, because their style already requires complex playing to begin with.

    Talent isn't just about being able to play complex music and technical know-how. Talented pop and blues musicians know how to create good songs that lots of people will like. Without talent, you suck.

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