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Better Call Saul (spoilers)

Totenkindly

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Better Call Saul Creators Tease Chuck vs. Jimmy and Likely Seeing Gus Fring in Season 3 - IGN

IGN: Chuck made a big move at the end of Season 2... You'd think Jimmy would have seen it coming... Was it because it was Chuck doing it that Jimmy didn't see the game being played?

Gilligan: You know, I love that question too. I've heard it said before that some of the best victims of cons are con men themselves. Maybe because there's some arrogance to a con man where they think no one can put one over on them. But I don't think this was arrogance or naiveté on Jimmy's part that allowed him to get conned. I think the most kind of cons... We talk about this a lot. There seems to be two basic types of cons. I'm no expert on cons, but we've learned a lot about them since starting this show. There are two basic engines. There is greed and there is sympathy. And it seems to us that the worst kind of con there is is the heartstrings con. The con that scams someone for having a good heart. There's the shell game on the sidewalk where you're told you can get rich quick. Make a hundred bucks real quick. I don't feel bad for people who get conned for that kind of thing. Or the Nigerian banking scam. I don't feel that bad for folks when that happens because they're kind of getting clipped out of their own greed.

But when a kind-hearted person opens the door and someone says, "My car broke down and my wife is sick and needs medicine, can you give me twenty bucks?", I hate those bastards. I think they're going to hell, deservedly. That's what happened here. It was a heartstrings con. And it was kind of despicable on Chuck's part. But on the other hand, what Jimmy did to prompt it was a despicable act on Jimmy's part. Jimmy really stuck it to his brother. And what I'm left with as a viewer, as one of the first fans of the show, is a feeling of sadness that these guys can't just love each other. That things have gotten so toxic in their relationship that they're just sticking it to one another. And Chuck, as upstanding and correct a gentleman as he is, as someone who looks down on Slipping Jimmy, his con man brother, it must run in the family because he's a pretty good con man himself. It must be genetic.

... totally agree on the heartstrings play. You're basically punishing someone for being kind to you. It's the lowest of the low and results in an environment where few want to reach out and be kind.
 

Totenkindly

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Season 3 starts tonight. Already the first two episodes seem to be nailing things.
Better Call Saul: Season 3 - Rotten Tomatoes

I binge-watched Season 2 a weekend or two back. Amazing and heartbreaking stuff -- Chuck's wife (where is she? But Chuck couldn't accept she found Jimmy to be fun), the situation with Kim, the passing of Chuck and Jimmy's mom (which so wonderfully encapsulates their relationship... it's all you really need to know about their dynamic to grasp all of it), how Jimmy might have been stealing from their dad but Chuck only knew/accepted half the story and the dad's flaws actually directly contributed to Jimmy, and so on. Of course most painful is that Jimmy might con people on their bad qualities (the stockbroker's greed) but what Chuck does is exploit someone for their goodness. I'm still kind of aching over the last few minutes of that Season 2 finale.

I really enjoy how the characters are allowed to breathe and allowed to be human, they are all kind of a mottled mix of good and bad qualities.
 

wool

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I'm catching up in the series at the moment. It's okay, not as good as Breaking Bad.
 

ceecee

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I think BCS is better than BB myself and it appears I'm not alone. Controversial: Is Better Call Saul actually better than Breaking Bad? (WATCH) | I'm eh on Gus coming into the show for some reason but we'll see.

 

Totenkindly

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I think BCS is better than BB myself and it appears I'm not alone. Controversial: Is Better Call Saul actually better than Breaking Bad? (WATCH) | I'm eh on Gus coming into the show for some reason but we'll see.

Yeah, I don't really care either way, but I appreciate the amount of taste and discretion they have shown about reintroducing familiar characters -- like not including Betsy last season in a potentially sensible scene with her, because it would have distracted from the BCS dramatic line. they seem very sensible and thoughtful about how they've been introducing those kinds of things.

They would have to introduce him at some point, since when we meet Mike, he is working for Gus.

I love BB to death, but I think BCS is harder to write ... Walt was essentially just an anti-hero, but Jimmy is actually more complex. The acting and writing has to be even more nuanced, and the character transitions have to be even more skillful... plus they are taking boring aspects of law and making them important/somewhat interesting. Watching Jimmy and Chuck interact, there's just so much going on there, and everyone is such a mix of good and bad. I saw one article saying it's reminiscent of the old Biblical brother stories of Cain and Abel, or more appropriate even Esau and Jacob (where slippin' Jimmy is the huckster who stole his brother's inheritance in a sense).

I was kinda disappointed we did not see exactly what is going to come of that little ploy by Chuck at the end of Season 2; apparently it will not be the most obvious blatant kind of chess move that would have immediate dire ramifications for Jimmy, but Chuck obviously still has a plan regardless to make his brother "pay"... and i have no idea what it is.

I fear for Kim. I just have this bad feeling that, much as the forecasting has suggested, she basically has her fate hitched to Jimmy and she'll suffer a lot of collateral damage. I love her so much, though -- that whole bit where she so diligently struggled over what punctuation mark to use... lol. I know that feeling, and of course she has so much more riding on that here.



I think it's also kind of cool that we see the future Jimmy (currently "Gene" ?), and it's very clear that he just will not be able to remain in hiding. Jimmy is not as disciplined as Chuck, he has to be true to who he is, and we see that he really just loves helping people by using his ingenuity and knowledge of the law and its loopholes. If there is anything good to come after all the shit that Walt wrought at the end of his arc, it seems that Jesse is probably happy somewhere, and I suspect that Saul Goodman will once again live one day, to hell with fake identities. If we need a threefer, well, there's still the hope Brock might be out hiking in his 20's and happen to find $75 million buried in the desert....
 

Totenkindly

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Well, that was an interesting outing.

Some excitement:




... does Mike ever even sleep? Yeesh.
 

Totenkindly

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i really love Gilligan's music/video montage sequences (which highlighted Breaking Bad as well) -- just some really great visual sequences and music that makes the show more interesting to watch. musical selections are typically great.

Looks like Chuck is playing this as expected. Poor Jimmy. I like his line delivery out by the curb, there were many ways to say what he said to Chuck but it was more with resigned sadness. jimmy lost a piece of his heart and I don't know if he will ever get it back.

At the end, it was kind of a touching sequence with Jimmy and Kim, and I like how it hails back to those scenes outside HHM in the parking garage, where they'd stand outside and share a smoke together. Poor Kim. This was her chance, maybe her last chance, to extract her fate from Jimmy's. Now she might be in over her head.
 

ceecee

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Mike never sleeps.

The look on Chuck's face when Jimmy told him he would die alone and in pain... that was like chopping off a limb but Chuck won't get that until it's too late. I want to know what all went down with his wife!

Kim. I love her and I don't want anything bad to happen to her but it's a collision course. I felt bad that she sleeps at the office and showers at the gym until I realized it's across the street from the office.

Gene - Was this ever covered in BB? Granted I didn't watch BB until it was over and I binged so I may have missed things here and there.
 

Totenkindly

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The look on Chuck's face when Jimmy told him he would die alone and in pain... that was like chopping off a limb but Chuck won't get that until it's too late. I want to know what all went down with his wife!

There was that great flashback last season with her, where Chuck set Jimmy up negatively before he came over for dinner, and then it turned out that she didn't find Jimmy nearly as annoying as Chuck did... and in fact even liked him. I'm really curious too.

Gene - Was this ever covered in BB? Granted I didn't watch BB until it was over and I binged so I may have missed things here and there.

Jimmy as "Gene" is a complete flash-forward, so you know as much as anyone else does I think... there was just the throwaway about Saul popping back up as cinnabon guy.
 

ceecee

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There was that great flashback last season with her, where Chuck set Jimmy up negatively before he came over for dinner, and then it turned out that she didn't find Jimmy nearly as annoying as Chuck did... and in fact even liked him. I'm really curious too.

Yes Chuck was so mad that she found him like...charming and nothing like Chuck. After that scene I was like NOOOOO don't leave us hanging!
 

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I have a feeling that the black and white present day scenes are eventually going to culminate with a Kim reunion. Probably a few seasons down the road.
 

Totenkindly

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Just finished episode 5. Wow.

But Jimmy was right -- Chuck had him boxed in, there was no other real escape route for him. Still, that was a hell of a hail mary pass... for a moment I felt like it was channeling another famous movie courtroom scene starring Jack Nicholson. ;)

I burst out laughing for about half a minute when I saw who Jimmy blind-hired through the black-market contact to do the "professional job." What a crackup.

... anyway, this was a definitive moment. Chuck insisted on playing so much hardball with Jimmy that finally Jimmy stopped soft-pitching his brother and did what he had to do to win.





I have a feeling that the black and white present day scenes are eventually going to culminate with a Kim reunion. Probably a few seasons down the road.

I have thought of that too. I would love that -- that maybe there could be SOME kind of happy ending after all the pain that Walt caused as well as the frustration Jimmy has suffered in his life.

Yes Chuck was so mad that she found him like...charming and nothing like Chuck. After that scene I was like NOOOOO don't leave us hanging!

Well, we got more Rebecca tonight! Twice over.

I'm getting the idea maybe they simply "drifted" and she pursued her opportunities overseas, although maybe with Chuck being a bit more rigid and she being a tad more open, that didn't help matters.

Honestly, pretty much anything bad that has happened to Chuck has kind of been his own fault due to his unwillingness to either accept his own mistakes or just ease up a bit and accept adversity and even the differences in other people. He's just so rigid that he cannot "breathe" and relax/accept things outside of his plan.
 

Totenkindly

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Great interview/article to read after you've seen episode 5.
‘Better Call Saul’ Postmortem: The Truth of Chuck’s Illness and Jimmy’s Big Play

Note the excuse Chuck uses in the opening flashback to explain why his "power was turned off" -- the situation he makes up directly keys into Jimmy's choices in Season 2. I'm not sure if it was just that the seed of a scheme was planted or whether it was partly poetic justice, but... I noted that as soon as I heard it.
 

Totenkindly

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Episode 6 had a few extra familiar faces in it plus another easter egg.
Also, something else I had guessed was coming based on the episode content.

‘Better Call Saul’ Postmortem: Showrunner Peter Gould on Seeing Saul, Jimmy’s New Gig, and Chuck’s Future
‘Better Call Saul’: Another ‘Breaking Bad’ Favorite Returns (SPOILERS)

a few comments:
 

Totenkindly

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Well, episode 9 was it -- a real turning point for Jimmy in terms of going Dark Side. Episode 6, going after Chuck? Well, the history of the brothers is bad, and they both kind of deserve a come-uppance. But what Jimmy does in this episode is very different tonally and it's a sign of how far he has slid.

Kim also reaches the end of her own rope, so to speak. And Chuck does some rotten things as well, and Hamlin gets some decent scenes.

And there's a lot going down with Nacho and Hector Salamanca... plus another fun "first meeting" between Mike and someone he figures prominently with in some scenes in Breaking Bad.

I've heard stuff really hits the fan in the finale. I hope Nacho will be okay... he might be morally compromised in some ways, but he still has values he tries to uphold especially where family is concerned.
 

Totenkindly

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Decent season finale to Better Call Saul. Jimmy earns a bit of redemption the hard way (his slow decline is full of false starts and stops), Kim decides to take a vacation of sorts, we might have seen a turning point with Hector, and there's a big shift for Chuck.



I think it's interesting to watch Jimmy, who seems to be doing more and more awful things, yet then bucks up and tries to do something right, pulling himself briefly from the abyss. Still, the end of this season might be a blow he can't easily recover from.

Howard is also a great character. I love how he was the villain of season 1, whereupon you realize maybe he's not actually the mastermind; and then despite being a bit uptight and needing to impose some structure (he's extremely professional and wants to wear that face), he's actually trying to do the right thing much of the time. This season we finally see him exposed rather than wearing the Hamlin face, because of some of the outrageous things that have happened; he ends up being pretty likable and possessing more moral fiber than originally was granted him.
 

Cellmold

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Decent season finale to Better Call Saul. Jimmy earns a bit of redemption the hard way (his slow decline is full of false starts and stops), Kim decides to take a vacation of sorts, we might have seen a turning point with Hector, and there's a big shift for Chuck.



I think it's interesting to watch Jimmy, who seems to be doing more and more awful things, yet then bucks up and tries to do something right, pulling himself briefly from the abyss. Still, the end of this season might be a blow he can't easily recover from.

Howard is also a great character. I love how he was the villain of season 1, whereupon you realize maybe he's not actually the mastermind; and then despite being a bit uptight and needing to impose some structure (he's extremely professional and wants to wear that face), he's actually trying to do the right thing much of the time. This season we finally see him exposed rather than wearing the Hamlin face, because of some of the outrageous things that have happened; he ends up being pretty likable and possessing more moral fiber than originally was granted him.

Agreed with everything you said.



I enjoyed the set up of Chuck's words to Jimmy, then realised in the aftermath of the Irene-isolation tactics that genuinely made me a bit uncomfortable (this is by no means a bad thing, although rare, but it made me surprised at myself given that I deal with the general public a lot and know old ladies are not necessarily innocent, but I guess I still have that soft spot). This of course culminates in Jimmy's (well-deserved by most accounts) self-flagellation in confession. They played that very well.

I'm curious to see how Nacho's side of things will develop (as an aside I didn't spot until recently that Michael Mando was the voice of Vaas Montenegro in Farcry 3, the character even looks like it is modelled after his appearance). The series has been well-developed, given it's past setting, with introducing new characters relevant to Jimmy's past before embracing Saul. And this open, but effective, angle to the their method of writing/directing means that they give themselves plenty of avenues to pursue in the future of their characters, even familiar ones whose final ends are known.

And the Nacho/Mike/Gus side of things seems to be ramping up. I suspect the next season will be half Jimmy coming to terms with
and their general relationship up to that point, that's if he can. It seems like the kind of lasting impact that can make a person change, though if this is to the result of a colder (at least internally), morally corrupt Jimmy remains to be seen.

I think next to that will be the ramping up of Nacho/Mike/Gus with Nacho either becoming more involved on the Gus side of things (or maybe taking over from Hector?) or something else entirely with a more negative, final end.

Into this Saul will probably have to be inserted at some point, so we might see the latter half getting us closer to Jimmy's progression into embracing his more ethically questionable & damaging (at least mainly to others, cheers Chuck) side.
 

Totenkindly

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Decent lengthy interview with Peter Gould (official show runner) covering a lot of stuff in the last few episodes...
‘Better Call Saul’ Showrunner Peter Gould on Season 3’s Last Scene (SPOILERS)

Obviously... spoilers for Season 3.

more linkies (spoilered due to titles):



I enjoyed the set up of Chuck's words to Jimmy, then realised in the aftermath of the Irene-isolation tactics that genuinely made me a bit uncomfortable (this is by no means a bad thing, although rare, but it made me surprised at myself given that I deal with the general public a lot and know old ladies are not necessarily innocent, but I guess I still have that soft spot). This of course culminates in Jimmy's (well-deserved by most accounts) self-flagellation in confession. They played that very well.

yeah, the sequence also reaffirms Chuck's power of influence over Jimmy (Gould says Chuck has both brother power + daddy power over Jimmy, the way Jimmy looks up to him); his decision comes after Chuck's comments, and Jimmy is willing to give up the few things he had left going for him in order to avoid the fate that the Chuck of Christmas Future had decreed for him and those he cares about....

it just might not be enough. (And well, obviously we know it won't be.) I'm not like Jimmy in how I work, but I can grasp him enough... he's pretty tender under the bluster, and those kinds of things really devastate him. He'll devolve into jaded Saul soon enough, because it all hurts too much.

I'm curious to see how Nacho's side of things will develop (as an aside I didn't spot until recently that Michael Mando was the voice of Vaas Montenegro in Farcry 3, the character even looks like it is modelled after his appearance). The series has been well-developed, given it's past setting, with introducing new characters relevant to Jimmy's past before embracing Saul. And this open, but effective, angle to the their method of writing/directing means that they give themselves plenty of avenues to pursue in the future of their characters, even familiar ones whose final ends are known.

And the Nacho/Mike/Gus side of things seems to be ramping up. I suspect the next season will be half Jimmy coming to terms with
and their general relationship up to that point, that's if he can. It seems like the kind of lasting impact that can make a person change, though if this is to the result of a colder (at least internally), morally corrupt Jimmy remains to be seen.

I like Nacho a lot -- he's realistic and can make hard choices when need be, he knows how the game is played and can see where things will go, but there's still love in his heart. He loves his father and was willing to sacrifice his father's pride in him (and maybe more) to save his life, and there's that scene where he almost gives 8-Ball a second chance a few episodes back, except Hector basically insists he teach 8-Ball a lesson. Nacho is pragmatic and plays the game out, but he resents Hector for that and a lot of things -- the old man is an asp who will bite you on the ankle at a whim. It's all kind of nuts considering we know how it all ultimately plays out, between him and Gus.

Kim made a big step for her as well. She's given up trying to compensate for Jimmy and/or what happened earlier in the season, she needs to do some self-care now.
 

Totenkindly

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‘Better Call Saul’ Postmortem: Patrick Fabian Talks About the Moment Chuck ‘Gobsmacked’ Howard

A great interview with Patrick Fabian (Howard) and how that last scene at the office with Chuck went down.

The beauty of it is that, while it's nice to hear his detailed thoughts, it's all very discernible from how the scene plays out. Howard is such an interesting character, because of his formality -- there's so much subtext to him, ways he acts on the surface that doesn't necessarily express his feelings... or it's channeled into the socially acceptable way to express something. Kind of like when southerners are talking about someone and say "bless their soul"... there's a lot bundled up in that. Same thing when Howard says, "Can we have the room?" Such a simple phrase, but it expresses the impending severity of what is about to commence... or how they go out and the entire staff is in the outer foyer waiting, and after giving the speech Howard says, "Do you want to say anything, Chuck?" knowing damn well there is nothing Chuck can say without losing far more face, and that it's done and over because if that just happened, Chuck's office is also probably already cleaned out and his HR papers are being processed.

Back in "Chicanery," when he is telling Chuck, "You don't need to testify," it's so obvious that Hamlin is saying, "Please don't testify, you have this on strength of case and you are not running a risk for yourself but potentially for the firm." He's trying to do preventative damage control in case something goes wrong, but Chuck is so hellbent on shooting down Jimmy and hammering his fate home that he insists on testifying.... which ruins him and also reflects poorly on the firm.

It made the few times that Howard has said what he means to seem almost emotionally violent (like when he recently chewed out Kim and at a different time Jimmy -- ouch).

I think it just was terrible for him when Chuck revealed he was going to sue the firm without really thinking twice about it, or when Chuck basically pulled the "I built this firm" bit (and Chuck probably did the heavy legal lifting, but without Howard to be the face, the firm would have died because Chuck is horrible at inspiring confidence and interacting with people), or when he basically called him a little boy by pulling the "I mentored you (so I am superior to you and know better)" bit. Still, even in the end, Howard really did what he did to protect the firm, rather than sheer personal animosity. He's actually one of the more "moral" characters on the show along with Kim... he's not perfect, but his actions are serving a higher cause in a sense (the firm, here) even when he wants to do and say other things.
 

Totenkindly

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oh, this was a nice touch -- the song playing when Jimmy goes to visit Chuck is "It never entered my mind."

lyrics:


(I recognized it because Linda Ronstadt covered it on one of her three Nelson Riddle albums...)
 
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