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  1. #151
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I have seen him in other things and is a serviceable actor. Again, I blame the actor, the director, and screenwriter. George is 2/3.

    And I don't count killing sand people as a big flaw. It is the rest of the moping and whining.

    I find his descent into mass-murdering thug wanting. Padme is in pain, oh, no.... must slaughter Jedi....

    Kylo Ren's anger (at what??? does it matter?) is very strong. He reminds me of my brother who was very bitter and angry at life and especially my dad for nothing. But Kylo Ren doesn't kill subordinates when they fail unlike Darth. Destroying property--big deal....

    Again, a very interesting character in my book, where Anakin was just annoying.... with a poor descent only Vader.

    But again, I have numerous issues with the prequels. Hayden Christensen is only a small part.
    I can see that we're never going to agree on this issue. To me, the Anakin story arc was the most interesting one in the SW universe; granted, the original trilogy was slightly before my time. I didn't have any interest in Star Wars until Episodes I-III came out. The movies certainly have their flaws, all 7 of them, but they're epic because of the big picture they present. That is, until the latest episode revealed that nothing has really been accomplished in the universe, despite all the celebration and fanfare at the end of Return of the Jedi. The Empire collapsed only to be replaced by a new empire with a new death star and sith lords. If you're interested in great acting, Star Wars was never the place to look. It's a giant puzzle that analyzes political and spiritual/philosophical ideas in a sci-fi setting That's what it is to me, at least. Leonardo DiCaprio was a rumored candidate for the role of Anakin. He's a good actor for sure, but I don't think he would've been right for the role nor portrayed Anakin's angst any more effectively than Hayden did.

    What's interesting about the prequel trilogy is watching his character transition from an innocent idealist with good intentions into a damaged psyche who's capable of justifying the slaughter of innocent people. Revenge of the Sith is more emotionally gripping than any of the other episodes to date, and I doubt future installments will delve into that level of darkness. And for that reason, it was the only one to receive a PG-13 rating, until The Force Awakens, which for the life of me, I still can't figure out. Nothing in that movie warranted a stronger rating than the other episodes...unless we count Darth Solo trashing his bedroom in a fit of rage. A certain character's death, who shall remain anonymous, doesn't remotely compare to Anakin being burned alive. Hayden Christensen showed more emotional range in that one scene than Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher combined in Episode 7.
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  2. #152
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabs View Post
    I can see that we're never going to agree on this issue. To me, the Anakin story arc was the most interesting one in the SW universe; granted, the original trilogy was slightly before my time. I didn't have any interest in Star Wars until Episodes I-III came out. The movies certainly have their flaws, all 7 of them, but they're epic because of the big picture they present. That is, until the latest episode revealed that nothing has really been accomplished in the universe, despite all the celebration and fanfare at the end of Return of the Jedi. The Empire collapsed only to be replaced by a new empire with a new death star and sith lords. If you're interested in great acting, Star Wars was never the place to look. It's a giant puzzle that analyzes political and spiritual/philosophical ideas in a sci-fi setting That's what it is to me, at least. Leonardo DiCaprio was a rumored candidate for the role of Anakin. He's a good actor for sure, but I don't think he would've been right for the role nor portrayed Anakin's angst any more effectively than Hayden did.

    What's interesting about the prequel trilogy is watching his character transition from an innocent idealist with good intentions into a damaged psyche who's capable of justifying the slaughter of innocent people. Revenge of the Sith is more emotionally gripping than any of the other episodes to date, and I doubt future installments will delve into that level of darkness. And for that reason, it was the only one to receive a PG-13 rating, until The Force Awakens, which for the life of me, I still can't figure out. Nothing in that movie warranted a stronger rating than the other episodes...unless we count Darth Solo trashing his bedroom in a fit of rage. A certain character's death, who shall remain anonymous, doesn't remotely compare to Anakin being burned alive. Hayden Christensen showed more emotional range in that one scene than Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher combined in Episode 7.
    Age factor matters. To those of us who saw Star Wars after waiting 2 hours in line back almost 40 years ago, Star Wars was something unique and special. You only need watch previous SF films to see how radical it was.

    It was likely one of the bet most transformative films ever, shaping the cinema ever since.

    It was nominated for best picture for a reason.

    As to self-awareness, Ani seemed to lack any he was burning up, while he should have had some earlier, as he betrayed the Jedi.

    Leo could have done a better job. But George didn't write it or direct it well enough. There were severe limits there.

    Who knows? Maybe I need to rewatch episode 3......

    Your being underwhelmed at episodes 4 & 5 remind me of watching Taxi Driver for the first time. I saw it well after I had seen a bunch of Tarantino films and other crime films. I was left pretty empty, saying "is this all?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  3. #153
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    When judging an actor's competence, I think we pretty much have to ignore a lot of the bad acting in any of the Star Wars movies, particularly those that Lucas had a large hand in. There are too many examples of good/great actors who didn't come off well. Remember... Lucas' idea of these movies were as "modern" 30-s era serials... melodrama and exaggerated acting just come along with that. He *wanted* the performances he got, specifically. Look at Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson, Harrison Ford, etc. All clearly competent, even great actors. And yet, some of those Portman/Christensen scenes in Attack of the Clones were the worst things I've seen on film. I literally (and yes, I mean *literally*) cringed in the theatre when I watched them.

    So for all of the "Noooooooooooooooooo!"s, "Yippieeee!"s and all of the other stunted and/or overdone acting, it's hard to put a lot of blame on the actors. Even Jake Lloyd (who was just a kid, after all). Sure, Ford and McGregor, in particular, still come off looking pretty good. But I don't think it's quite fair to lambast the skills of the others based solely on Star Wars.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabs View Post
    I can see that we're never going to agree on this issue. To me, the Anakin story arc was the most interesting one in the SW universe; granted, the original trilogy was slightly before my time. I didn't have any interest in Star Wars until Episodes I-III came out. The movies certainly have their flaws, all 7 of them, but they're epic because of the big picture they present. That is, until the latest episode revealed that nothing has really been accomplished in the universe, despite all the celebration and fanfare at the end of Return of the Jedi. The Empire collapsed only to be replaced by a new empire with a new death star and sith lords. If you're interested in great acting, Star Wars was never the place to look. It's a giant puzzle that analyzes political and spiritual/philosophical ideas in a sci-fi setting That's what it is to me, at least. Leonardo DiCaprio was a rumored candidate for the role of Anakin. He's a good actor for sure, but I don't think he would've been right for the role nor portrayed Anakin's angst any more effectively than Hayden did.

    What's interesting about the prequel trilogy is watching his character transition from an innocent idealist with good intentions into a damaged psyche who's capable of justifying the slaughter of innocent people. Revenge of the Sith is more emotionally gripping than any of the other episodes to date, and I doubt future installments will delve into that level of darkness. And for that reason, it was the only one to receive a PG-13 rating, until The Force Awakens, which for the life of me, I still can't figure out. Nothing in that movie warranted a stronger rating than the other episodes...unless we count Darth Solo trashing his bedroom in a fit of rage. A certain character's death, who shall remain anonymous, doesn't remotely compare to Anakin being burned alive. Hayden Christensen showed more emotional range in that one scene than Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher combined in Episode 7.
    I don't agree with you completely but I commend you for having the balls to stand against the current of popular opinion. FWIW, I think those of us who prefer the OT look back at it through the shiny, rose colored lens of nostalgia glasses and are all too happy to overlook any inherent flaws. The same could be said for fans who prefer the prequels, but the OT is rarely bashed or harshly scrutinized by the "purists" and older fans, whereas the prequels are frequently treated as a bad dream by fans. All of the films are far from perfect--I can even find flaws in Empire, it's just that the strengths far outweigh the flaws, IMHO. Conversely, a constructive exercise for the OT purists might be to watch the prequels and look for strengths or aspects of them that actually worked well, rather then to lambaste them as pure unredeemable garbage.

    It will be interesting to note in coming years how prequel and OT fans might differ in their opinions of the TFA, since it was clearly written and filmed as a throwback to the OT. Even Lucas criticized it as a very "retro" movie. There is some validity in that. Yes, I enjoyed it, but I'd agree with your point that watching it, I felt like little had been accomplished within that universe. Now, had they made this film to be set 5 or even 15 years later, it might work, but nearly half a century on from the destruction of the empire, and it felt like we were picking up right after Jedi, but in some weird time warp where time and events had frozen whilst the characters continued to age.

    Still an awesome film, but I think they could've conveyed the transition of time and events whilst retaining some "retro" feel for the oldschool fanboys. IMO that is one area where the prequels did better. III and IV are only separated by 19 years, but the drastic change in the political and cultural landscape of the galaxy is very evident, as it should be, considering what happened after the clone wars. There are 30+ years between VI and VII, yet it feels little has changed or happened aside from the original characters aging, as if there were some weird reverse carbonite freeze effect. I might be overly critical, as perhaps VIII and IX will do a better job of conveying passage of time and events as more backstory and exposition is given. We'll have to see what Rian Johnson and the writers do with it.

    Abrams made a retro movie because that's what he's good at. He takes old properties and embellishes the most memorable elements; he is not an innovator (even Lost was a highly derivative series in many regards). I hated the new Star Trek reboots, but the best parts were the nods to the classic Trek universe. Unfortunately, the films were weak popcorn movies, sci-fi lite that couldn't be held together with a few lazy winks and nods to the older trekkies. If he'd cared about Trek and understood it as much as he cares about SW, then I think they would've been fun films that united the old and new fans rather than dividing them and alienating much of the old fanbase. It is possible to make a popular, popcorn Trek experience while remaining faithful to the Roddenberry vision that trekkies cherish so deeply, but JJ never had any interest in doing that.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    Who knows? Maybe I need to rewatch episode 3......
    check out the machete order. I felt it improved II and III for me, as well as the OT.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    As to self-awareness, Ani seemed to lack any he was burning up, while he should have had some earlier, as he betrayed the Jedi.
    He showed a flicker of it when he was standing on Mustafar all teary eyed before Obi-Wan and Padme showed up. I read at as him suddenly seeing what he'd done, feeling deep regret but also knowing he'd passed the point of no return.

    The problem is a lot of his development into the Vader we know and love happened off screen between III and IV. With Ren, we kind of get to see that transformation.

  7. #157
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    He showed a flicker of it when he was standing on Mustafar all teary eyed before Obi-Wan and Padme showed up. I read at as him suddenly seeing what he'd done, feeling deep regret but also knowing he'd passed the point of no return.
    His lack of vision is so telling. He can't see another path or believe that another way is possible. Even at that point he could have changed his path. Obi wan tries so hard to save him....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    His lack of vision is so telling. He can't see another path or believe that another way is possible. Even at that point he could have changed his path. Obi wan tries so hard to save him....
    Oh you're absolutely right. I blame it on weak writing. In theory, the idea that Palpatine had him hooked with the Padme-will-die-unless-you-join-me promise works, but it's hard to believe Anakin would have joined so easily. I think the events of the prequels should've been shifted backwards. Ep I should've begun with Anakin as a young man instead of a 10 year old, and his fall to the dark side should have happened at the end of II. It should've been a more gradual turn that happened through I and II, with Anakin becoming jaded from watching the Jedi order become little more than a tool of the bureaucracy. More emphasis should've been placed on Palpatine's rise to power as well. A more gradual turn to the dark side would've been more compelling and believable. They tried to convey it with his attack on the sand people and his decapitation of Dooku, but ultimately it feels very abrupt and rushed when he finally joins Sidious. The last half of III should've been drawn out over the end of II and the entirety of III
    The Clone Wars should've taken center stage rather than happening mostly off screen between II and III.
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  9. #159
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Oh you're absolutely right. I blame it on weak writing. In theory, the idea that Palpatine had him hooked with the Padme-will-die-unless-you-join-me promise works, but it's hard to believe Anakin would have joined so easily. I think the events of the prequels should've been shifted backwards. Ep I should've begun with Anakin as a young man instead of a 10 year old, and his fall to the dark side should have happened at the end of II. It should've been a more gradual turn that happened through I and II, with Anakin becoming jaded from watching the Jedi order become little more than a tool of the bureaucracy. More emphasis should've been placed on Palpatine's rise to power as well. A more gradual turn to the dark side would've been more compelling and believable. They tried to convey it with his attack on the sand people and his decapitation of Dooku, but ultimately it feels very abrupt and rushed when he finally joins Sidious. The last half of III should've been drawn out over the end of II and the entirety of III
    The Clone Wars should've taken center stage rather than happening mostly off screen between II and III.
    My thoughts exactly.....

    But then they couldn't do Clone Wars TV series and such.

    But Ani does show the perils of inferior Ni....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  10. #160
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Plinkunt az de answars!

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.
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