User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 45

  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eluded_One View Post
    Samantha only did what was natural to her newly found consciousness. The morals of monogamy didn't apply to her, or even if they did, made it even more confusing to her capabilities.
    Yes. That's where I was kind of going with the idea of intangible vs tangible. Monogamy seems to be more strongly rooted if you live in a physical body, so you cannot be in multiple places simultaneously. Being with one person means you cannot be with another at once. So our ethics and expectations have been constructed around that constraint. Our notions of special revolve around exclusive, or at least exclusive and private in the moment.

    Samantha is not restricted in such ways, she can run multiple threads simultaneously while processing them all fully. This means she can also learn and experience at a much faster rate than human beings. But she can also be with multiple beings simultaneously without restricting what she gives them in the way a human being would be restricted if they tried to bounce back and forth between loves.

    I thought it was a thoughtful example of how the differences in actual nature made the relationship difficult/impossible over time. The world "slut" might apply to a human being who behaved this way, but human judgments (which imply character and motivation) don't apply to a being that isn't human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eluded_One View Post
    I don't think it matters at all. I don't understand where you are going with this question.
    Because men in western culture are typically allowed multiple partners without being judged so severely. And there seems to a gendered difference in how people rank physical vs emotional affairs. That seems to be the most obvious underlying reason behind asking such a question.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinn View Post
    Only one thing I didn't like. Scarlett's voice. It was too flat and ordinary.
    Her voice was less flat and ordinary than Joaquin's. He barely had any range in his voice. Why the double standard?

    I'm guessing the standard is higher for women. All the men in the movie had pretty flat voices, but women are expected to be more melodic and emotional and judged if they are not.

    "It's too bad she won't live...then again, who does?".
    Was that agreeing? Disagreeing? Not sure where you're going.

    I don't think he change a lot. He always was sensitive and creative man. Sam focused on this side of his personality. She also show him how to be more efficient. Because Theo was sometimes too dreamy.
    Agreed. She nudged him into the physical world. She even got his work published. His relationship with her changed him ways that allowed him to engage/extravert better.

    She didn't change. She shows us her real face. AI whos learn human behavior and imitate it.
    That's what human beings do too. In the most blatant example, we don't even learn to speak if we are not raised around other humans during the appropriate windows of developement; we remain locked in a cold silent world for the rest of our lives. But so much of our specific behavior is based on socialization.

    Even the dialogue of the movie was change, change, change. How many times was that word used in the movie? At best you could say it was in her nature to learn, evolve, and change... so by changing, she was being herself.

    When she was saying goodbye to Theo, we heard how cold and unemotional she was.
    That's ironic. I found her voice and words full of anguish, it was clear she was struggling. Doesn't your experience as an INTP help -- that externally maybe you're not dripping with emotion but inside you're broken up? Or does the flattish tone of voice you might have mean you have no emotions? I could hear the pain in her voice... but she was also very aware of her needs and spoke reasonably rather than crying outwardly about it. Her reason was preferred to emotion.

    He is obvious INFP. Sam ESTJ. She is pretend P. As all computers she's very organized and she is a sensor.
    I don't much care what "types" they are, because I already can predict how each would act in a situation. MBTI'ing them is generalizing them back out to an archetype, which means we're losing granularity in trying to understand them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Because men in western culture are typically allowed multiple partners without being judged so severely. And there seems to a gendered difference in how people rank physical vs emotional affairs. That seems to be the most obvious underlying reason behind asking such a question.
    Close enough but actually I was wondering how women might have reacted if the genders had been switched in the movie... Are men allowed to have multiple partners and get away with it in western cultures?

    I am wondering whether they'd have empathized with let's say Sam the AI or with A'Thena whom the AI Sam cheated on emotionally with other female users and then moved on and left behind alone...?

    Would they hate Sam the AI for doing that...?

    Is there difference between how men and women perceive cheating and infedility?

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Close enough but actually I was wondering how women might have reacted if the genders had been switched in the movie... Are men allowed to have multiple partners and get away with it in western cultures?

    I am wondering whether they'd have empathized with let's say Sam the AI or with A'Thena whom the AI Sam cheated on emotionally with other female users and then moved on and left behind alone...?

    Would they hate Sam the AI for doing that...?

    Is there difference between how men and women perceive cheating and infedility?
    One of the studies I was referring to (I read it in the last few weeks?) said that women have more trouble dealing with a man's emotional infidelity, while men have more trouble dealing with a woman's physical infidelity. That seems to bear out more in practice, although there are always multiple reasons for why a woman might accept her male partner despite his sleeping around and vice versa.

    I will be clear that I brought my own preconceptions into the viewing just like Theodore had, and I was as stunned as he was when Samantha started explaining how she had been talking to so many other entities and was in love with quite a number of them. It took the breath out of my lungs. It wasn't just one or two others. I think, beyond gender, we are all human beings, and the inherent reality of being in a meat body provides us all with certain expectations. I was so floored. But mentally, once I realized I had totally misunderstood Samantha's reality, I was able to scramble into "her shoes" and see that from her perspective, she was not under the same rules, and then better evaluate her motives, needs, and whatever else.

    At that point, it was clear the relationship was on shaky ground, if not doomed.

    Anyway, see the bold. I think in terms of whether we more easily see Ted's or Sam's side in terms of that aspect, it's more based on us being human vs gendered. I'd have been bothered by AI's of either gender doing it, but at the same time would have seen it as unfair for me to impose my needs on my partner, and thus the relationship would be ending. For me, emotionally and physically, relationships are more exclusive.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member lecky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6 sx/sp
    Posts
    148

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Dead cat -- and you know that was Kristen Wiig, right? She was great.
    The "guyish" female voice right before her was actually a guy... Bill Hader.

    Still, the thing is, when you say Ted's only true love didn't really "exist" -- well, if you mean you don't think she's a real person, then that's exactly the type of issues this movie was trying to address. Did Samantha not exist? Was she not real? Are human beings real, and by what definition? We're tangible, sure. But is it the tangibility that makes us real people? We're really just wills that grow and learn and change over time, regardless of the shape and state of our body, aren't we?

    But tangibility vs intangibility creates a vast difference of expectation and experience, that much is true. Tangibility makes things personal, yet also limits.
    That just makes me love Kristin Wiig even more. @Eluded_One nailed why I thought the movie was very INFP.

    This is where you will think I'm foolish, but I don't think Samantha as real because she human made, no soul. I am not religious and identify myself as agnostic only because I don't know the answers. I do think there is a human soul besides the frontal cortex of our brains. I do think there is something more than science can explain, or maybe science will explain it someday.

    Although Samantha had emotions they were not real...or maybe she did.

    I don't know...this is why that movie is so damn good, it's getting me to think all kinds of crazy stuff about love, social media, AI, God, what are we really, the doomed future, relationships in general. This movie was was superb on many levels.
    Tritype 6-9-4 Sp/Sx

  6. #16
    Senior Member lecky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6 sx/sp
    Posts
    148

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    would it make any difference if the genders were switched?
    No, I wouldn't think he was a slut. I did get mad at Samantha a couple of times because she could read his mind so well in the beginning, she should have just let him go...she wasn't doing him any favors. Then again, that's what made her somewhat human, her jealousy and insecurity when it came to his actions. I felt really bad for the guy.
    Tritype 6-9-4 Sp/Sx

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lecky View Post
    That just makes me love Kristin Wiig even more.
    Yeah, I love how everything started fine -- and suddenly she just transitioned it into a completely new direction.

    This is where you will think I'm foolish, but I don't think Samantha as real because she human made, no soul. I am not religious and identify myself as agnostic only because I don't know the answers. I do think there is a human soul besides the frontal cortex of our brains. I do think there is something more than science can explain, or maybe science will explain it someday.
    Well, I would not say you are foolish. I just think there is no evidence that souls exist, nor can the origin of a soul be specified. (For example, if a soul exists, who says it is not a byproduct of the creation of an awareness, that flowers as it learns? Why does a soul have to be a static created thing injected in meat bodies?)

    Also, in the scene where the screen blanks out, I also think you could not tell any difference between Samantha as an AI vs Samantha in a physical body. Note how Theodore talks to women on the phone and you accept them as real, and Samantha is even more nuanced yet she is being dismissed as unreal because she's not in a meat body and supposedly has no soul. I've met human beings with less scruples and depth and character; it seems odd to me that they would be considered "real" or having a soul, over her.

    What if you take a human in a meatbody and transfer their consciousness into an android body? Do they no longer have a soul?

    I don't know...this is why that movie is so damn good, it's getting me to think all kinds of crazy stuff about love, social media, AI, God, what are we really, the doomed future, relationships in general. This movie was was superb on many levels.
    I know! All these questions running through my head -- and the funny thing is that why the movie raised them simply because of the plot and the interaction between the characters, it didn't try to preach nor did it try to justify the characters. It's allowing us to infer the questions and to examine the evidence without necessarily trying to dictate an answer.

    I felt bad for both of them. Neither wanted to hurt the other, but they were in different places. And neither of them knew that would happen until it did -- that's often how change and growth work. You just realize one day that you're in different places and what might have worked in the past if you had both remained static is now different, and either you both change in the same ways so that you still complement each other or ... it's not going to work. But maybe if you've been in that situation, where a relationship ends because of changes in the people involved and not out of malice or betrayal, then maybe it's easier to follow. Both parties seemed to be aware, here, of how things had changed, and they just could not keep things going; and Sam did say if Theodore did eventually change in ways that would allow them to be in sync again, she would be there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member lecky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6 sx/sp
    Posts
    148

    Default

    Nevermind
    Last edited by lecky; 05-17-2014 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Sounded too typist
    Tritype 6-9-4 Sp/Sx

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Don't know what you said, but I believed in a soul until I was in my mid/late 30's, then realized I had no actual evidence. So now I have to admit I really don't know. Which I think is true. No one can prove a soul exists, it's just an assumption that people take for granted. But I don't think sacred cows should exist, if we want to remain honest about the nature of life. It would be horrible to make certain beings into second-class citizens or treated as "not as real/authentic" simply because someone decided they are lacking in something that can't even be shown to exist.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Don't know what you said, but I believed in a soul until I was in my mid/late 30's, then realized I had no actual evidence. So now I have to admit I really don't know. Which I think is true. No one can prove a soul exists, it's just an assumption that people take for granted. But I don't think sacred cows should exist, if we want to remain honest about the nature of life. It would be horrible to make certain beings into second-class citizens or treated as "not as real/authentic" simply because someone decided they are lacking in something that can't even be shown to exist.
    Do animals have souls?

Similar Threads

  1. Did you watch...
    By Scarfism in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-07-2009, 12:20 AM
  2. Did anyone ever watch "Clone High" on MTV?
    By simulatedworld in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-10-2009, 12:43 AM
  3. So anyone watch Conan's debut last night?
    By Wade Wilson in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-08-2009, 10:48 PM
  4. Anyone watched HBO's: OZ?
    By Qre:us in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-03-2009, 11:58 PM
  5. Did anyone catch Obama's speech on race?
    By JuilinThiefTaker in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 03-24-2008, 09:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO