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  1. #61
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (Note that I'm always willing to give something a go, but I don't shell out lots of money for PDFs and hardback rulebooks when it's a system I'm probably not going to use. So no, if people with similar playstyles don't like it, and what I see looks like a step down to me -- I'm not going to invest my money and time.)
    Yeah, this is totally fair, and more or less the reason I haven't tried 5e yet. Why spend money on a game you're not psyched to play, right?

    At the same time though, I find it sad how many people seem to form preconceived ideas about 4e based on what their friends say, and then walk around repeating edition warrior war cries like "It's like an MMO." 'Cause if I had listened to what people told me about MBTI and Pathfinder, I would never have played PF and I wouldn't be here.

    Not saying 4e is perfect, mind you, 'cause every game has problems. But if you ever find yourself invited to a 4e session with kool people, I hope you can keep an open mind long enough to give it a try.

  2. #62
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    4th edition is a fine system for one thing and that's combat with well represented miniatures and terrain. It's a boardgames disguised as a role playing game.

    That sounds like a criticism but I mean to be precise not judgemental.

    The system has a wonderful rules set for keeping combat entertaining and balanced. However it presents few options, most of the abilities are prescriptive and will inevitably define the character. The skill system is woefully brief and the equipment is more of a side note.

    With a really good DM then the game will be a hoot and interesting. However the roleplay side if things will be almost entirely ad lib and away from the rules. That's fine but you can do that with toy cars for example. It's still the same kind of thing as a full rpg system but as the game mechanics are no longer involved it hardly seems like the game itself is present at those points.

    Full rpg systems allow much wider customisation of your character and abilities. You can craft the image, the personality, the gear to a much higher degree. Also the choices you make have impacts and nuance.

    Okay I'm starting to show my munchkin tendencies..

    If you wanted the opposite to 4th edition then it'd be gurps or the hero system. There you can find rules for everything and you can customise to your hearts content (but the rulebook would cover texas if laid out).

    Something we often discussed in our group was roleplay vs roll-play. On the one extreme we had those who liked to build big modifiers and used the dice to represent their characters whilst the other was more like a shakesperian actor who happened to have a dice on them. Both could use 4th ed but the luvvy would make it sing better. The roll-player would quickly tire and get bored.
    (note a person is rarely one or the other but a blend of the extremes)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #63
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    4th edition is a fine system for one thing and that's combat with well represented miniatures and terrain. It's a boardgames disguised as a role playing game.
    *sigh*

    Yeah, this is what I was afraid of when I asked why Jennifer doesn't like 4e. This is the sort of thing that edition warriors have said about each and every edition.

    Old School Edition Warrior: "3e is a trading card game disguised as a role playing game. It's not a real rpg!"
    New School Edition Warrior: "TSR D&Ds are miniature wargames that think they're role playing games. They're not full rpgs!"

    I'm not sure what the 5e sound byte is, but I'm sure it's equally inane. So let's forget that I asked about 4e, or I may have to ignore this thread, and that'd be a shame.

  4. #64
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay I'm starting to show my munchkin tendencies..
    ...I know Munchkin Fu.



    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    *sigh*

    Yeah, this is what I was afraid of when I asked why Jennifer doesn't like 4e. This is the sort of thing that edition warriors have said about each and every edition.

    Old School Edition Warrior: "3e is a trading card game disguised as a role playing game. It's not a real rpg!"
    New School Edition Warrior: "TSR D&Ds are miniature wargames that think they're role playing games. They're not full rpgs!"
    I've never said anything like this about any other version of D&D to anyone. Just 4e. I'm an avid MMO fan (I've played about ten different ones for periods of time), and the similarities were obvious to me.

    So no, I don't think so. But whatever.

    If you have aspects of 4e that you think are worthwhile, there is no reason not to bring them up. Obviously you have more detailed knowledge of the system than me; if I can learn something about it from someone who likes it, that helps me understand it better.

    ----

    I thought Numenera and Fate (which I now realize is based on FUDGE, which I had heard of) were pretty accessible RPGs to new players -- they both streamline the process tremendously, while still keeping some variety in the play. They're more "role-play" though. Basically whatever the system doesn't bring to the table, the players need to.

    I also like White Wolf NWoD. The system itself is not quite as simple as Fate but just uses extra dice pools per pip in your ability or skill. The complications come more from the wide selection of powers and skills and abilities to try to synergize in some way. It also demands more roleplaying, versus mechanics that tend to dominate D&D and Pathfinder (although obviously you can RP in any system). I had a pretty quick learning curve on NWoD.

    My learning curve sucked on Exalted. I hate that game. It's still WW I think, with similar basic attributes and dice pools, but it gets really complex to me in terms of power-buying and levels of powers and... just a bunch of crap. I played it for six months, never felt like I understood it, and don't really ever want to play it again.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #65
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If you have aspects of 4e that you think are worthwhile, there is no reason not to bring them up. Obviously you have more detailed knowledge of the system than me; if I can learn something about it from someone who likes it, that helps me understand it better.
    I suspect that further discussion on the 4e topic would result in the sort of back-and-forth bickering that pervades D&D forums everywhere, and that's not why I'm here at TypeC. I will say that while I sometimes share the sensibilities of large portions of the D&D fanbase -- such as my opinion that the d20 revamp is a definite improvement over the mess of isolated and inconsistent mechanics of TSR D&D -- I often find myself flabbergasted by what other gamers do and don't care about.

    (Maybe my MBTI could explain this? I don't know.)

    If you're interested in why 4e has a dedicated fanbase despite the hater bandwagon, here's a wordpress post which nicely summarizes things: Why 4e Fans Love 4e. Like I said, 4e isn't perfect and some of the criticism it gets is totally valid; but on the whole I find it the most fun and sensible rpg I've ever played.
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  6. #66
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    How Not to Be Seen [in regards to alignment]



    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    I will say that while I sometimes share the sensibilities of large portions of the D&D fanbase -- such as my opinion that the d20 revamp is a definite improvement over the mess of isolated and inconsistent mechanics of TSR D&D -- I often find myself flabbergasted by what other gamers do and don't care about.
    I think it would be fun to do a one-shot session of 1st Edition AD&D, just so I can recall how hackneyed it was. "Tomb of Horrors" indeed, lol. Real multi-class bards!

    I think the current game is much better too, but with the original set I remember having seen nothing like it ever before (those hardcover books) and I was just a kid at the time. A friend of my parents had them, and so I was sitting there in his living room while they were off doing whatever, looking at these books. They just blew my mind. The old printing fonts and layout and b&w art is just part of the nostalgia for me. I still have my copies, they're like 35 years old or something.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 02-05-2015 at 06:51 PM.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  7. #67
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    *sigh*

    Yeah, this is what I was afraid of when I asked why Jennifer doesn't like 4e. This is the sort of thing that edition warriors have said about each and every edition.

    Old School Edition Warrior: "3e is a trading card game disguised as a role playing game. It's not a real rpg!"
    New School Edition Warrior: "TSR D&Ds are miniature wargames that think they're role playing games. They're not full rpgs!"

    I'm not sure what the 5e sound byte is, but I'm sure it's equally inane. So let's forget that I asked about 4e, or I may have to ignore this thread, and that'd be a shame.
    Wasn't supposed to be whaling on anything. Apologies if it came across like that.

    I have my favourites and I know why I like them. It's kind of the curse of the INTP, if I know why I like it then I'll almost argue the point that the decision is valid not to prove my decision greater but just to reaffirm it to myself, to see if there's something I've missed and out of sheer enjoyment in doing it.

    If 4th ed works for someone I'm kind of jealous. It's like looking at the kid who's playing aeroplanes. They need no extensive set of props, no big setup time, no real input from anyone. Sure I'd not play that way but I'm kinda jealous that they can. 4th ed is similar. To enjoy it you're not really as interested in the rules making the game, they are more of a backdrop to it.

    I am old in rpg terms though. I reminisce back to D&D basic edition and the original MERPS. But to put that in context, I played D&D when I was ten. Then I hit a lull of DMs for about 6 years. I still bought the books, made the characters and learned the rules...I just didn't have anyone to play the game with. Hence I have a wide knowledge of the systems but (considering how long I've been playing) a lack of stories to remember.

    As a side note, if you and your group ever desire a more X Files kind of game, look into Conspiracy X. It is similarly light on rules, options and complexity. Preferring to concentrate on telling the story rather than rules and technicalities.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think the current game is much better too, but with the original set I remember having seen nothing like it ever before (those hardcover books) and I was just a kid at the time. A friend of my parents had them, and so I was sitting there in his living room while they were off doing whatever, looking at these books. They just blew my mind. The old printing fonts and layout and b&w art is just part of the nostalgia for me. I still have my copies, they're like 35 years old or something.
    Oh yeah, I regret selling my 2e books to this day, particularly the Planescape stuff. The rules were messy, but the artwork and prose were amazing! If someone could somehow combine DiTerlizzi's artwork with Zeb Cook's writing team with the best rules of 3e and 4e...*shudder* Well, I might just have my first religious revelation.
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  9. #69
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I really liked Bill Willingham's artistic stylizations in the early modules and materials.

    Funny thing is, he moved away from art and into writing. His Elementals (he was writing) in the mid/late 80's was pretty edgy. Still, it was also pretty angry and he seemed rather extreme in how he relayed his views. Now, years later, he's well-known and compared to Gaiman and others, with his Fables series which Mark Buckingham draws and he writes. It's one of the best series out there and is likely to have triggered the creation of the "Once Upon a Time" TV show.

    I just think it's funny his first creative stuff was visual art for TSR.

    I liked Jeff Dee and Erol Otus too.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #70
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Wasn't supposed to be whaling on anything. Apologies if it came across like that.
    No worries. I'm accustomed to liking things that other people disregard out of hand. What gamer isn't, right? But there's only so many times that anyone can hear someone casually comment that my hobby isn't a real/full/true/kool/manly hobby, taking for granted that everyone knows it, without saying something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I have my favourites and I know why I like them. It's kind of the curse of the INTP, if I know why I like it then I'll almost argue the point that the decision is valid not to prove my decision greater but just to reaffirm it to myself, to see if there's something I've missed and out of sheer enjoyment in doing it.
    My curse is not being able to stop analyzing games, and noticing even trivial inconsistencies. Like how the Weapon Focus/Spec feat tree follows a clear pattern...until it just stops with the fourth one. Oh, and how anyone can take the first one, but only fighters can take the others. Most gamers seem to either not notice or not care about this kinda thing, but all I can think is why can't people write consistent rules?!

    I've been consistently typed as INTJ though, so I suppose this makes sense.

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