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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    D&D5 (what I can tell from the player's handbook) looks more viable than 4. It's a better mix. Monks might even rock more; in Pathfinder, a lot of people get frustrated with monk, it's something you dip into in order to play some other class. *doh*

    Pathfinder has a lot more options to it, I think; but that can be confusing to inexperienced players. It looks like D&D5 is still trying to fish the "new to RPGs" player market.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    D&D5 (what I can tell from the player's handbook) looks more viable than 4. It's a better mix. Monks might even rock more; in Pathfinder, a lot of people get frustrated with monk, it's something you dip into in order to play some other class. *doh*

    Pathfinder has a lot more options to it, I think; but that can be confusing to inexperienced players. It looks like D&D5 is still trying to fish the "new to RPGs" player market.
    Glad I never embarked upon buying it. As a died in the wool (proper) Munchkin, it's the options that drive me

    One of my favourite games is still Shadowrun and the number of options in that is astounding!

    Still, this new player idea seems a little myopic by the companies. What you need is a system that can be expanded painlessly. They could do with simpler early levels and more complexity as you grow as characters. Mind you D&D has always been about the exponential power creep. Why a ten level adventurer with perhaps a years experience can whoop ten city guards who've been on duty for forty years without breaking a sweat let alone getting a scratch is something which always irked me. The game is, however, intrinsically limited in it's obsession with a single die determining probability. No bell curve.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #53
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    At least THAC0 is dead.

    I think smaller game systems with different infrastucture can avoiding doing the "niche" thing, they're used to being small and lean in their staffing.

    And a lot of stuff for Pathfinder seems to be more like White Wolf, where you don't have internal staff per se, they're all doing other jobs and writing this stuff on freelance / putting together the game. (Is that true?)

    TSR was the old-model company with in-house full-time employees. Not sure how Wizards handed that once they bought them out in the 90's, but it's like they are still on the model of having to be REALLY BIG / solid company and thus trying to scoop up new players all the time... people with no experience. Most people started with D&D but would then jump to more niche games like Shadowrun, I think, because they found the system and liked it and/or the genre better. Lots of games like that.

    Pathfinder had a HUGE opportunity when D&D (1) made the rules open source and (2) took a huge turn with their 4e. They basically said, "Hey, we're going to take the 3.5e game that everyone likes and keep that and expand on it, so if you like that, stay with us!" It was a window of opportunity and they really capitalized on it successfully. (They also seem to have that stable "competition play" where you can build characters RAW, orthodox, and then take that character to any official game anywhere and be able to use it. And get official stuff for your characters in that context. Which is kind of cool.)

    Anyway, D&D is still focused on "bringing in new players) to fuel later sales, and the other companies are more about winning over players once they understand RPGs and getting them to use their systems. At least that is how I view it.

    Pathfinder to me seems pretty easy, but I've also been playing AD&D since I was 10-12 or so. I remember the rougher editions of the game and liked the 3.5 system, having ironed out some kinks, added skills and some diversity, etc. Pathfinder seems all about diversity, although you can get into some magic-item and attribute creep.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    You missed out the main man, Monte Cook did his own system based on the Open d20 license.

    It's depressing how far that system of rules went. Shadowrun's old dice pools were much better as a mechanic and I truly did love the d20 system in the old Star Wars game before d20s came along and homogenised the industry.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #55
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You missed out the main man, Monte Cook did his own system based on the Open d20 license.
    I actually have Numenera and the Strange. Not many people play it around here (I've only done one session of Numenera) but I liked it. Definitely simplifies the play session but did not feel over-inhibiting.




    ... i need a good game of Paranoia. hahaha!

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    i need a good game of Paranoia. hahaha!

    You should work in local government. Plenty there to go around!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Why a ten level adventurer with perhaps a years experience can whoop ten city guards who've been on duty for forty years without breaking a sweat let alone getting a scratch is something which always irked me.
    It is more than a bit silly when a party goes from zero to hero demigod within a year of game world time, but of all the D&Disms that bug me -- and there are quite a few -- the game's very literal 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' dynamic has never been one of them. I like dramatic advancement, so I just think of it as a byproduct of the game world's fantastical physics.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It's all about balance. I mean, does anyone want to be a magic user who can still only cast magic missile after one year of play? If they aren't dead by then?

    Some classes also do better out of the box than others; then some of those piddly classes can outdo the "faster developing" classes once they get up to level 10 or higher. So it can be a seesaw.

    Most campaigns I'm in start around levels 4-6, and we usually haven't continued past level 11-12 before starting a new campaign with new characters.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #59
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    D&D5 (what I can tell from the player's handbook) looks more viable than 4. It's a better mix. Monks might even rock more; in Pathfinder, a lot of people get frustrated with monk, it's something you dip into in order to play some other class. *doh*
    It's funny you mention not liking 4e and 3.x monks being frustrating, 'cause they actually rock in 4e! I may regret asking this, but this is the second time you've spoken badly about 4e despite having never played it, yes? What exactly do you not like about what you see?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    It's funny you mention not liking 4e and 3.x monks being frustrating, 'cause they actually rock in 4e! I may regret asking this, but this is the second time you've spoken badly about 4e despite having never played it, yes? What exactly do you not like about what you see?
    In short, it looked like a lot of MMO'ing the AD&D game to me, when I've looked over the system in the past. My son also created characters in that system at college, his first experience with D&D, and I didn't really like his description of what he was working with.

    (Note that I'm always willing to give something a go, but I don't shell out lots of money for PDFs and hardback rulebooks when it's a system I'm probably not going to use. So no, if people with similar playstyles don't like it, and what I see looks like a step down to me -- I'm not going to invest my money and time.)

    It's not like that's a rare opinion. It's one reason why they released 5e and tried to merge different editions play experiences. 5e had better buzz, I read about it, though it might be enjoyable, and found a half-priced PH I could buy in order to read more closely.

    If you enjoy it, or someone else thinks it looks interesting, be my guest.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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