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Dungeons & Dragons, Call of Cthulhu, Other TTRPGs

Passacaglia

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(Note that I'm always willing to give something a go, but I don't shell out lots of money for PDFs and hardback rulebooks when it's a system I'm probably not going to use. So no, if people with similar playstyles don't like it, and what I see looks like a step down to me -- I'm not going to invest my money and time.)
Yeah, this is totally fair, and more or less the reason I haven't tried 5e yet. Why spend money on a game you're not psyched to play, right?

At the same time though, I find it sad how many people seem to form preconceived ideas about 4e based on what their friends say, and then walk around repeating edition warrior war cries like "It's like an MMO." 'Cause if I had listened to what people told me about MBTI and Pathfinder, I would never have played PF and I wouldn't be here. :(

Not saying 4e is perfect, mind you, 'cause every game has problems. But if you ever find yourself invited to a 4e session with kool people, I hope you can keep an open mind long enough to give it a try.
 

Xander

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4th edition is a fine system for one thing and that's combat with well represented miniatures and terrain. It's a boardgames disguised as a role playing game.

That sounds like a criticism but I mean to be precise not judgemental.

The system has a wonderful rules set for keeping combat entertaining and balanced. However it presents few options, most of the abilities are prescriptive and will inevitably define the character. The skill system is woefully brief and the equipment is more of a side note.

With a really good DM then the game will be a hoot and interesting. However the roleplay side if things will be almost entirely ad lib and away from the rules. That's fine but you can do that with toy cars for example. It's still the same kind of thing as a full rpg system but as the game mechanics are no longer involved it hardly seems like the game itself is present at those points.

Full rpg systems allow much wider customisation of your character and abilities. You can craft the image, the personality, the gear to a much higher degree. Also the choices you make have impacts and nuance.

Okay I'm starting to show my munchkin tendencies..

If you wanted the opposite to 4th edition then it'd be gurps or the hero system. There you can find rules for everything and you can customise to your hearts content (but the rulebook would cover texas if laid out).

Something we often discussed in our group was roleplay vs roll-play. On the one extreme we had those who liked to build big modifiers and used the dice to represent their characters whilst the other was more like a shakesperian actor who happened to have a dice on them. Both could use 4th ed but the luvvy would make it sing better. The roll-player would quickly tire and get bored.
(note a person is rarely one or the other but a blend of the extremes)
 

Passacaglia

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4th edition is a fine system for one thing and that's combat with well represented miniatures and terrain. It's a boardgames disguised as a role playing game.
*sigh*

Yeah, this is what I was afraid of when I asked why Jennifer doesn't like 4e. This is the sort of thing that edition warriors have said about each and every edition.

Old School Edition Warrior: "3e is a trading card game disguised as a role playing game. It's not a real rpg!"
New School Edition Warrior: "TSR D&Ds are miniature wargames that think they're role playing games. They're not full rpgs!"

I'm not sure what the 5e sound byte is, but I'm sure it's equally inane. So let's forget that I asked about 4e, or I may have to ignore this thread, and that'd be a shame.
 

Totenkindly

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Okay I'm starting to show my munchkin tendencies..

...I know Munchkin Fu.

SJ320587.jpg


*sigh*

Yeah, this is what I was afraid of when I asked why Jennifer doesn't like 4e. This is the sort of thing that edition warriors have said about each and every edition.

Old School Edition Warrior: "3e is a trading card game disguised as a role playing game. It's not a real rpg!"
New School Edition Warrior: "TSR D&Ds are miniature wargames that think they're role playing games. They're not full rpgs!"

I've never said anything like this about any other version of D&D to anyone. Just 4e. I'm an avid MMO fan (I've played about ten different ones for periods of time), and the similarities were obvious to me.

So no, I don't think so. But whatever.

If you have aspects of 4e that you think are worthwhile, there is no reason not to bring them up. Obviously you have more detailed knowledge of the system than me; if I can learn something about it from someone who likes it, that helps me understand it better.

----

I thought Numenera and Fate (which I now realize is based on FUDGE, which I had heard of) were pretty accessible RPGs to new players -- they both streamline the process tremendously, while still keeping some variety in the play. They're more "role-play" though. Basically whatever the system doesn't bring to the table, the players need to.

I also like White Wolf NWoD. The system itself is not quite as simple as Fate but just uses extra dice pools per pip in your ability or skill. The complications come more from the wide selection of powers and skills and abilities to try to synergize in some way. It also demands more roleplaying, versus mechanics that tend to dominate D&D and Pathfinder (although obviously you can RP in any system). I had a pretty quick learning curve on NWoD.

My learning curve sucked on Exalted. I hate that game. It's still WW I think, with similar basic attributes and dice pools, but it gets really complex to me in terms of power-buying and levels of powers and... just a bunch of crap. I played it for six months, never felt like I understood it, and don't really ever want to play it again.
 

Passacaglia

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If you have aspects of 4e that you think are worthwhile, there is no reason not to bring them up. Obviously you have more detailed knowledge of the system than me; if I can learn something about it from someone who likes it, that helps me understand it better.
I suspect that further discussion on the 4e topic would result in the sort of back-and-forth bickering that pervades D&D forums everywhere, and that's not why I'm here at TypeC. I will say that while I sometimes share the sensibilities of large portions of the D&D fanbase -- such as my opinion that the d20 revamp is a definite improvement over the mess of isolated and inconsistent mechanics of TSR D&D -- I often find myself flabbergasted by what other gamers do and don't care about.

(Maybe my MBTI could explain this? I don't know.)

If you're interested in why 4e has a dedicated fanbase despite the hater bandwagon, here's a wordpress post which nicely summarizes things: Why 4e Fans Love 4e. Like I said, 4e isn't perfect and some of the criticism it gets is totally valid; but on the whole I find it the most fun and sensible rpg I've ever played.
 

Totenkindly

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How Not to Be Seen [in regards to alignment]



I will say that while I sometimes share the sensibilities of large portions of the D&D fanbase -- such as my opinion that the d20 revamp is a definite improvement over the mess of isolated and inconsistent mechanics of TSR D&D -- I often find myself flabbergasted by what other gamers do and don't care about.

I think it would be fun to do a one-shot session of 1st Edition AD&D, just so I can recall how hackneyed it was. "Tomb of Horrors" indeed, lol. Real multi-class bards!

I think the current game is much better too, but with the original set I remember having seen nothing like it ever before (those hardcover books) and I was just a kid at the time. A friend of my parents had them, and so I was sitting there in his living room while they were off doing whatever, looking at these books. They just blew my mind. The old printing fonts and layout and b&w art is just part of the nostalgia for me. I still have my copies, they're like 35 years old or something.
 
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Xander

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*sigh*

Yeah, this is what I was afraid of when I asked why Jennifer doesn't like 4e. This is the sort of thing that edition warriors have said about each and every edition.

Old School Edition Warrior: "3e is a trading card game disguised as a role playing game. It's not a real rpg!"
New School Edition Warrior: "TSR D&Ds are miniature wargames that think they're role playing games. They're not full rpgs!"

I'm not sure what the 5e sound byte is, but I'm sure it's equally inane. So let's forget that I asked about 4e, or I may have to ignore this thread, and that'd be a shame.
Wasn't supposed to be whaling on anything. Apologies if it came across like that.

I have my favourites and I know why I like them. It's kind of the curse of the INTP, if I know why I like it then I'll almost argue the point that the decision is valid not to prove my decision greater but just to reaffirm it to myself, to see if there's something I've missed and out of sheer enjoyment in doing it.

If 4th ed works for someone I'm kind of jealous. It's like looking at the kid who's playing aeroplanes. They need no extensive set of props, no big setup time, no real input from anyone. Sure I'd not play that way but I'm kinda jealous that they can. 4th ed is similar. To enjoy it you're not really as interested in the rules making the game, they are more of a backdrop to it.

I am old in rpg terms though. I reminisce back to D&D basic edition and the original MERPS. But to put that in context, I played D&D when I was ten. Then I hit a lull of DMs for about 6 years. I still bought the books, made the characters and learned the rules...I just didn't have anyone to play the game with. Hence I have a wide knowledge of the systems but (considering how long I've been playing) a lack of stories to remember.

As a side note, if you and your group ever desire a more X Files kind of game, look into Conspiracy X. It is similarly light on rules, options and complexity. Preferring to concentrate on telling the story rather than rules and technicalities.
 

Passacaglia

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I think the current game is much better too, but with the original set I remember having seen nothing like it ever before (those hardcover books) and I was just a kid at the time. A friend of my parents had them, and so I was sitting there in his living room while they were off doing whatever, looking at these books. They just blew my mind. The old printing fonts and layout and b&w art is just part of the nostalgia for me. I still have my copies, they're like 35 years old or something.
Oh yeah, I regret selling my 2e books to this day, particularly the Planescape stuff. The rules were messy, but the artwork and prose were amazing! If someone could somehow combine DiTerlizzi's artwork with Zeb Cook's writing team with the best rules of 3e and 4e...*shudder* Well, I might just have my first religious revelation. ;)
 

Totenkindly

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I really liked Bill Willingham's artistic stylizations in the early modules and materials.

Funny thing is, he moved away from art and into writing. His Elementals (he was writing) in the mid/late 80's was pretty edgy. Still, it was also pretty angry and he seemed rather extreme in how he relayed his views. Now, years later, he's well-known and compared to Gaiman and others, with his Fables series which Mark Buckingham draws and he writes. It's one of the best series out there and is likely to have triggered the creation of the "Once Upon a Time" TV show.

I just think it's funny his first creative stuff was visual art for TSR.

I liked Jeff Dee and Erol Otus too.
 

Passacaglia

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Wasn't supposed to be whaling on anything. Apologies if it came across like that.
No worries. I'm accustomed to liking things that other people disregard out of hand. What gamer isn't, right? But there's only so many times that anyone can hear someone casually comment that my hobby isn't a real/full/true/kool/manly hobby, taking for granted that everyone knows it, without saying something.

I have my favourites and I know why I like them. It's kind of the curse of the INTP, if I know why I like it then I'll almost argue the point that the decision is valid not to prove my decision greater but just to reaffirm it to myself, to see if there's something I've missed and out of sheer enjoyment in doing it.
My curse is not being able to stop analyzing games, and noticing even trivial inconsistencies. Like how the Weapon Focus/Spec feat tree follows a clear pattern...until it just stops with the fourth one. :thelook: Oh, and how anyone can take the first one, but only fighters can take the others. :wtf: Most gamers seem to either not notice or not care about this kinda thing, but all I can think is why can't people write consistent rules?! :ranting:

I've been consistently typed as INTJ though, so I suppose this makes sense.
 

Totenkindly

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Well I guess I need to share with y'all the most recent events of my Weds night campaign, where it looks like Sumiko's days of descending into evil might now be over.

On our quest to find allies to help us prevent the appearance of the demon god in two years (game time), we went to a city that ended up being populated by lots of good orc monks + angels. They also had their own planar gate (to their dimension of heaven) there. We were trying to gain their help and maybe an army.

Our group had a mix of alignments -- a few good, a neutral or two, and then two evils. One was Sumiko, who spiraled into it but projected as "pragmatic". The other was Tristan, the strix, who had been converted to Chaotic Evil when compulsed to release the demon lord of magic.

We left Tristan in the brig as usual (because he's evil and can turn people against us by association) when we went to talk to the angels and ask for help. They were kind of stand-offish and skeptical, and Sumiko found them condescending and had trouble keeping her beak shut.

After ten days of us improving the ship, hanging out, buying supplies, they came to our airship and demanded that everyone come off and give an account of who they were. So the group basically complied, but this made Sumiko bristle. (She has had bad experiences with angels. The last angel, in the soul gem she found, was difficult to deal with; and when she finally let him out, he was arrogant and insufferable.)

Last, we marched out Tristan, who they immediately demanded destroy his holy symbol and that he be taken into their custody. The elf negotiating with them from our group said, "uh, no, he's in our custody," and the angel in charge there sic'ced the 20 monks surrounding our group on the elf and Tristan. They were grappled effectively and the rest of us were threatened within that closing circle. Tristan was struggling (although not succeeding in casting anything or getting out, it was all pretty inept), so the angel cast Holy Smite on the group, which hurt Sumiko and some of the others who had not done anything wrong. (Police brutality!) Sumiko used her psionic wall-walking power to run up the side of the airship to the top deck, to get away; a ninja tried to hit her with a throwing star and missed.

Down below, the angel was still smiting things and then walked up and hit Tristan over the head with the pommel of her sword. (Note that no one else was fighting, but even the elf spokesperson was being treated roughly -- they were going to drag he and the strix off to the tribunal, to be tried and punished.) Meanwhile, now Tristan was uttering about how his god was really going to give it to them.

Furious at her friends being treated so unfairly, and being outraged by the angel's arrogance -- the arrogance of all angels -- Sumiko (unobserved atop the ship) grabbed the big soulstone out of her bag, the one she had never dared use before, the one that terrified her. The creature inside, the balor demon (essentially a balrog), spoke to her, and she was so angry that she channeled its power while letting the balor decide how that power would be made manifest. She was used to struggling for control with the angel, but that is because the angel and she were at cross-purposes; here, the balor was all too happy to comply. She rolled a 39 on UMD, and the balor's power poured forth from the stone.

The angels and monks did not know what hit them. The balor uttered a horrific Blasphemy, some of the party took damage (the good members) but fortunately made their saves; yet many of the monks and even the angel failed theirs. Dead, blown away, turned to ash, whatever. Sludge. Even any who made their saves were paralyzed for minutes. It was the most horrific display of power -- the instant death even of powerful divine creatures -- that anyone had witnessed. It was a total WTF just happened moment, as no one down there even knew it was coming.

Every survivor freaked out and scattered. The party threw anyone still paralyzed back on the ship. Some thought Tristan had done it (and he was still lying on the port below). The ones that suspected sumiko found her curled up in a ball in the corner of the deck, shaking. When they threatened her, Carnage (her gnome thrall) stepped into defend his mistress... and it was quickly clear to them that she was in no shape to do anything like that ever again. The decision was made to cast off. The balor stone was tossed on the deck below (let the angel leaders decide what to do with it) with Tristan, kind of pinning the crime on him, and the party sailed off to get as far out of Dodge as possible.
 

Totenkindly

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But... Part 2.

Tristan found the big soulstone in its protective casing sitting there. he could have flown off. he could have ignored it. He could have turned himself into the authorities and accepted judgment.

Instead he touched the stone, and the balor spoke to him. "Release me, and I will reward you greatly!" Tristan, without much thought, said, "Hey, cool -- no problem! I hate this place anyway." So he starts taking a hammer to the stone. No one has yet arrived from the angel/monks to see what had happened. After a few rounds, he breaks the casing with all of its protective seals. Then he lifts the sphere and smashes it on the ground. There is a huge flash of light. Even the party members on the airship see it and FEEL it as the wave passes the boat; it's like a huge bright bomb just went off.

Tristan finds himself standing next to a 12' tall balor demon. It grabs him and says it will have him watch the destruction of the city as a reward before it terminates him. What? The demon lied? Tristan is indignant. How rude! Demons can't be trusted, not ever! Even his own demon lord master must be a flake.

The demon smacks the ground and Desecrates the area. The Desecration is a quarter mile wide and even encompasses the Gate. It creates a permanent zone where evil creatures are stronger and good creatures suffer. It then starts summoning crap and killing whatever is nearby. The entire city is under siege.

In its distraction, Tristan manages to break free and plane shift. The angels could have followed him before, if he had tried that, but right now they have worse problems. He goes to the fey and converts back to their cause... but his time with the party is now over (because no one wants to adventure with him because of the crazy evil stuff he just did).

On the airship, the party sees a huge circle of red flame leap up in the city they left, turning to sicking green fire (the Desecration). The entire city is going up. The battle there must be hot and fierce. At best, they can just hope that no one knows they were involved in that cataclysm.

Sumiko is repentant as the enormity of what she just contributed to burns itself into her brain. All the rage and arrogance and bitterness, of toying with power, but this is where it ends up. One of the party takes her under his wing and promises that he'll help her change. And at the moment she is open to that.

[I'm considering playing her in the OTHER direction now, with the alignment conversion... almost too good, annoyingly so. Lol. Whatever would seem fair but also funny.]

her story in this sense is kind of like Ged from "A Wizard in Earthsea":
 

GarrotTheThief

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But... Part 2.

Tristan found the big soulstone in its protective casing sitting there. he could have flown off. he could have ignored it. He could have turned himself into the authorities and accepted judgment.

Instead he touched the stone, and the balor spoke to him. "Release me, and I will reward you greatly!" Tristan, without much thought, said, "Hey, cool -- no problem! I hate this place anyway." So he starts taking a hammer to the stone. No one has yet arrived from the angel/monks to see what had happened. After a few rounds, he breaks the casing with all of its protective seals. Then he lifts the sphere and smashes it on the ground. There is a huge flash of light. Even the party members on the airship see it and FEEL it as the wave passes the boat; it's like a huge bright bomb just went off.

Tristan finds himself standing next to a 12' tall balor demon. It grabs him and says it will have him watch the destruction of the city as a reward before it terminates him. What? The demon lied? Tristan is indignant. How rude! Demons can't be trusted, not ever! Even his own demon lord master must be a flake.

The demon smacks the ground and Desecrates the area. The Desecration is a quarter mile wide and even encompasses the Gate. It creates a permanent zone where evil creatures are stronger and good creatures suffer. It then starts summoning crap and killing whatever is nearby. The entire city is under siege.

In its distraction, Tristan manages to break free and plane shift. The angels could have followed him before, if he had tried that, but right now they have worse problems. He goes to the fey and converts back to their cause... but his time with the party is now over (because no one wants to adventure with him because of the crazy evil stuff he just did).

On the airship, the party sees a huge circle of red flame leap up in the city they left, turning to sicking green fire (the Desecration). The entire city is going up. The battle there must be hot and fierce. At best, they can just hope that no one knows they were involved in that cataclysm.

Sumiko is repentant as the enormity of what she just contributed to burns itself into her brain. All the rage and arrogance and bitterness, of toying with power, but this is where it ends up. One of the party takes her under his wing and promises that he'll help her change. And at the moment she is open to that.

[I'm considering playing her in the OTHER direction now, with the alignment conversion... almost too good, annoyingly so. Lol. Whatever would seem fair but also funny.]

her story in this sense is kind of like Ged from "A Wizard in Earthsea":

this makes me want to buy the new d&d game on steam. The new dragon age...
 

Xander

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Typical yank... Locals annoy you so you drop a nuke... I don't know. What has become of diplomacy these days..
 

Totenkindly

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Typical yank... Locals annoy you so you drop a nuke... I don't know. What has become of diplomacy these days..

My diplomacy score sucked (give me bluff or intimidate instead), and the party diplomats had made no headway.

"I'd say diplomacy has failed." ~Avatar
 

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Wow, amazing stuff!!
I missed so much....



That's a great story! And very true to evil -- "I'm not evil, I'm pragmatic."
yes! I find that evil is more interesting when it grows out of real circumstances. When it starts as justified and embraceable, and grows slowly into something more sinister.

For instance- our fighter ("Robert Blackhaven")'s family and home was massacred by his brother in a coup, with the use of a time-traveling crown. We rallied behind Robert and took revenge, but he was still not satisfied. He started a war to oust the widespread corruption from the realm, and gain control of the throne. We continued to back him, and a terrible war ensued - and the world fell deeper and deeper into chaos and ruin and hellfire.
In the end we stormed the throne room, and we all sacrificed ourselves to give Robert an opening to take the time-travel-crown. He took it, but he disappeared into time - and left us to awaken in a bleak ruined wasteland world of ash.
Now we are in an alternate horrible reality - where Robert is a mad god that is 10,000+ years old, sowing nightmares across the land.
(Robert became a NPC, and our friend playing him rolled a new character.)

[I'm considering playing her in the OTHER direction now, with the alignment conversion... almost too good, annoyingly so. Lol. Whatever would seem fair but also funny.]

yes, I am into that. I am into the development/growth of characters.

My diplomacy score sucked (give me bluff or intimidate instead),
I always take diplomacy/negotiation over bluffing and intimidation. I can't help but be earnest, and always try to talk my way out of everything.
 

Totenkindly

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yes! I find that evil is more interesting when it grows out of real circumstances. When it starts as justified and embraceable, and grows slowly into something more sinister.

Yeah. My character started as Neutral and "drifted" into it because of the forces we were having to confront -- she explored darker knowledge and was slowly corrupted, and it meshed with her childhood angers and her own ego to the point where she was difficult to deal with.

This was a taste of "real evil" though -- no more games -- and she realized she was messing with things far beyond her control. There is no way she wants to see things like this unleashed now upon the world, having tasted them firsthand.

For instance- our fighter ("Robert Blackhaven")'s family and home was massacred by his brother in a coup, with the use of a time-traveling crown. We rallied behind Robert and took revenge, but he was still not satisfied. He started a war to oust the widespread corruption from the realm, and gain control of the throne. We continued to back him, and a terrible war ensued - and the world fell deeper and deeper into chaos and ruin and hellfire.
In the end we stormed the throne room, and we all sacrificed ourselves to give Robert an opening to take the time-travel-crown. He took it, but he disappeared into time - and left us to awaken in a bleak ruined wasteland world of ash.
Now we are in an alternate horrible reality - where Robert is a mad god that is 10,000+ years old, sowing nightmares across the land.
(Robert became a NPC, and our friend playing him rolled a new character.)

Wow. That's pretty cool. :) I mean, if you're not a PC and have to live in that wasteland. But yes, I love how the story kind of writes itself, if you try to remain in character for what's happening and the choices you've made. OOC, I didn't want to use the balor stone, but in character, she honestly would have done it based on her entire past, soooo... now the aftermath. :doh: So what are your characters there doing now, if you're still playing that?



I always take diplomacy/negotiation over bluffing and intimidation. I can't help but be earnest, and always try to talk my way out of everything.

Bluff is good for that too. ;)

I actually make all of my characters different, on purpose. I want to understand the full range of game mechanics better, and I want to explore a new persona as well. I do kind of have a penchant for "fast" characters versus strong or magical, but basically with personality I try to find something in each character I make that I can identify with. Here, for example, Sumiko feels like a loner; and she also is kind of the annoying "know it all" and believes she's smarter than everyone else. I reject that for myself IRL, but I do understand it, so it gives me an "in" to her and I know how to play her.

I never really play lawful good, but I was thinking about that next time out just to mix things up.
 

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Yeah. My character started as Neutral and "drifted" into it because of the forces we were having to confront -- she explored darker knowledge and was slowly corrupted, and it meshed with her childhood angers and her own ego to the point where she was difficult to deal with.

yes! I find that a much more engaging antagonist. I am very attracted to the idea that an horrific "irredeemable" villain is justified and heroic in their own mind, and has a path that is very sympathetic.

This was a taste of "real evil" though -- no more games -- and she realized she was messing with things far beyond her control. There is no way she wants to see things like this unleashed now upon the world, having tasted them firsthand.

That is the underlying drive in my current Star-Wars RPG :
that a person's true self will out -
Our "hard-hearted" brutally-pragmatic Mercenary has actually proven to be very soft-hearted and tender and protective,
our "easy-going" "nonchalant" Pilot is actually a hotheaded impulsive time-bomb of intransigent purpose,
our "by-the-book" high-minded emotionally-detached police-officer is becoming increasingly vengeful and imperious and tyrannical.

and When faced with dire life-changing morality, one will express their true self.
 

Totenkindly

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That is the underlying drive in my current Star-Wars RPG :
that a person's true self will out -
Our "hard-hearted" brutally-pragmatic Mercenary has actually proven to be very soft-hearted and tender and protective,
our "easy-going" "nonchalant" Pilot is actually a hotheaded impulsive time-bomb of intransigent purpose,
our "by-the-book" high-minded emotionally-detached police-officer is becoming increasingly vengeful and imperious and tyrannical.

and When faced with dire life-changing morality, one will express their true self.

yes yes yes! :)

That's the thing -- the cleric who the party bumped last night (because it didn't make sense for the group to go anywhere with him) -- when confronted with evil, he unleashed it purposefully on the world. When Sumiko experienced it, despite all her dalliances with evil... she could have gone either way and chose to reject it.

These situations reveal a character for who they are deep down.
 

Dannik

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That's the thing -- the cleric who the party bumped last night (because it didn't make sense for the group to go anywhere with him) -- when confronted with evil, he unleashed it purposefully on the world. When Sumiko experienced it, despite all her dalliances with evil... she could have gone either way and chose to reject it.

These situations reveal a character for who they are deep down.

yes! I think characters have an intrinsic morality -
and when your party is pushed to their moral limits, they may express themselves in unexpected ways... and that can be a major and exciting focus of your plot and relationships going forward.
And if that Revelation is incongruent with how your character has acted in the past...
 
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