True Detective

[Poindexter Arachnid]

The buzz on the street now is that McConaughey might pull in an Emmy this year too.

Gonna happen. I only hope it is for a miniseries, not Drama series.
Cranston deserves the award for his final season on Breaking Bad.

 

[Totenkindly]

Gonna happen. I only hope it is for a miniseries, not Drama series.
Cranston deserves the award for his final season on Breaking Bad.

Well, as far as the shows go, it looks like BB is listed under TV drama while True Detective is under miniseries. So it looks probable he's in the miniseries category.

The only sad part about that is that Harrelson really, really shone, it could be his best work ever; and it's a shame that his performance just happened to be overshadowed by MMc's.

 

[Ivy]

I completely agree with your spoilered text, [MENTION=12864]Poindexter Arachnid[/MENTION]. Completely, completely agree. It was fantastic. I do have some questions about the plot and was unsatisfied with some of that stuff, but it was an appropriate dissatisfaction, if that makes sense. It's really fucking refreshing to watch something that is more concerned with its philosophical underpinnings and characterization than it is with tying up every loose end plotwise.

I'm not sure I could say that it outshone Ozymandias exactly.. they're too different to be compared like that.

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION], I agree about Woody (huh huh). I was really not a fan of either guy before this. I thought they both brought something really special to their parts. I wish there was a way they could get a dual Emmy since neither performance would have been as bright without the other.

 

[ceecee]

I wish there was a way they could get a dual Emmy since neither performance would have been as bright without the other.

I felt the same way. Because it conflicted with Downton Abby (I know, I know but it's good too) I recoded TD. It was SO good. I got all caught up prior to Episode 6 I think. My husband watches Boardwalk Empire and he usually doesn't get into any of the other series but I talked him into this. We were like glued to the tv Sunday. HBO generally doesn't disappoint but they hit a home run with this series.

 

[Totenkindly]

Done.

I started this evening with Episode 6 and ended up blowing the rest of the night starting the streaming and watching the last two episodes as well.

Definitely was worth the watch. And I agree with one reviewer who said it was less about the crime investigation and more about the toll it took on the two men doing the investigating. They both took a lot of serious damage emotionally and relationally along the way, and for me it was more compelling to see how that resolved than whether the crime was solved and/or both men survived the season. They both had some pretty dark journeys... and both were very human and in some ways difficult to like at times... yet I was still rooting for them and wanted to see them succeed.

I'm glad the show preserved a lot of that good stuff to the very end.

Also kind of cool seeing them in three different "eras" of their lives ... younger men, more middle-aged, and then a bit older and in the declining years. And seeing how they might have changed and whether that was good or bad.

 

[Totenkindly]

http://theweek.com/article/index/257787/speedreads-seth-rogen-and-jimmy-kimmel-in-true-detective-2

 

[Totenkindly]

Oh, and about this plot point (big spoiler):

Maggie goes to Rust's apartment and seduces him, although it didn't take a lot, resulting in Rust kicking her out and never interacting with her again really, and Marty and Rust having that huge brawl in the parking lot and Rust quitting.

One of the reviewers was complaining about it at the time, saying they found it non-believable because Rust was so strong-willed.

At the time, after I saw that episode, I disagreed.

- I had thought I had detected some level of attraction between Rust and Maggie before, but Rust is very disciplined and Maggie faithful, so neither really responded. But they had a way that they interacted and a kind of "shared bonding" because both had to deal with Marty's bullshit. In fact, Rust was the only person who really grasped what Marty was doing to his marriage, who Maggie could talk to. So the seeds were there.

- Rust was obsessed with the case and had been suspended and locked up in his apartment, his isolation managed to INCREASE despite being so bad already. He was very very disciplined but very very hurting -- at this point, he had already lost two marriages.

- Rust had some disdain for Marty for cheating on his wife and not controlling himself, so "it was Marty's fault" that he was even in this predicament and he deserved whatever he got. (Note a later conversation where Marty and Rust are discussing "judging people" and Marty insists that Rust is always judging him even when Rust doesn't say anything, and Rust says people judge others all the time, that's what we do in order to make decisions, so if you want to be human you need to accept that.) Rust also had lost his wives + a daughter, while Marty seems to be taking them for granted.

- Note that Maggie might be trying to understand Marty a bit when she goes out to hook up (to put herself in his shoes) but is also trying to HURT him, IMO -- if he can sleep around, so can she, and he shouldn't take their relationship for granted. This is very obvious when Marty comes home and she's full of barely restained anger, leading her to throw her encounter with Rust in his face, triggering Marty to almost choke her (and when he restrains himself after she goads him on to hurt her and says at least then she would have some reason to explain to her daughters for their breakup, she calls him a coward... )

- I think this is what Rust picks up on right after they have sex... he realizes she was using him at least in strong part to get back at Marty / be a bartering point in their marriage problems, and this infuriates him... he's mad at himself for giving into desire and breaking his own standards, he's mad at being momentarily fooled by another human being, he's mad because what Maggie did was wrong and unfair to him (dehumanized him)... and this is why he flips out, screams at her, and tosses her out the door. (Note that Maggie's intent HAS to have been at least partly calculating, as instead of feeling wounded by Rust, she goes straight home and uses the encounter as ammo in her marriage fight; an "innocent" would have handled Rust's abuse differently, believing it to be unfair.) Rust feels so betrayed by her and mad at himself, in fact, that he pretty much avoids Maggie ever after.

That's what I got out of that episode. Of course, I think in the finale, Marty and Rust address the issue on the nose, and Marty tries to excuse Rust's sleeping with Maggie ("She said she seduced you, you really didn't want to") and Rust is like, "Everyone has a choice, Marty. We all can make our own decisions" -- refusing to be exonerated. He still blames himself for giving in and will likely never let himself off the hook.) I felt like it justified my reading of Episode 6.

What did y'all think?

I'm also scanning Rust as an Enneagram One moralist type (rigid self-discipline, stringent moral judgment of himself and others), probably an SP variant, and probably an INFJ in a harsh Ni-Ti loop where he can just reinforce his intuitions with a hard-ass Thinking process. Note his Fe use is typically utilitarian, he uses it to achieve goals especially when interrogating or interviewing people, but he never really uses it to truly connect in a personal way until 2012 -- he actually asks Marty how he is and what he's been up to, and Marty says, "I don't think you've ever asked me that before." The 2012 Rust is a bit softer, older, more open, more accepting of his humanity and the humanity of others.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

Oh, and about this plot point (big spoiler):

Maggie goes to Rust's apartment and seduces him, although it didn't take a lot, resulting in Rust kicking her out and never interacting with her again really, and Marty and Rust having that huge brawl in the parking lot and Rust quitting.

One of the reviewers was complaining about it at the time, saying they found it non-believable because Rust was so strong-willed.

At the time, after I saw that episode, I disagreed.

- I had thought I had detected some level of attraction between Rust and Maggie before, but Rust is very disciplined and Maggie faithful, so neither really responded. But they had a way that they interacted and a kind of "shared bonding" because both had to deal with Marty's bullshit. In fact, Rust was the only person who really grasped what Marty was doing to his marriage, who Maggie could talk to. So the seeds were there.

- Rust was obsessed with the case and had been suspended and locked up in his apartment, his isolation managed to INCREASE despite being so bad already. He was very very disciplined but very very hurting -- at this point, he had already lost two marriages.

- Rust had some disdain for Marty for cheating on his wife and not controlling himself, so "it was Marty's fault" that he was even in this predicament and he deserved whatever he got. (Note a later conversation where Marty and Rust are discussing "judging people" and Marty insists that Rust is always judging him even when Rust doesn't say anything, and Rust says people judge others all the time, that's what we do in order to make decisions, so if you want to be human you need to accept that.) Rust also had lost his wives + a daughter, while Marty seems to be taking them for granted.

- Note that Maggie might be trying to understand Marty a bit when she goes out to hook up (to put herself in his shoes) but is also trying to HURT him, IMO -- if he can sleep around, so can she, and he shouldn't take their relationship for granted. This is very obvious when Marty comes home and she's full of barely restained anger, leading her to throw her encounter with Rust in his face, triggering Marty to almost choke her (and when he restrains himself after she goads him on to hurt her and says at least then she would have some reason to explain to her daughters for their breakup, she calls him a coward... )

- I think this is what Rust picks up on right after they have sex... he realizes she was using him at least in strong part to get back at Marty / be a bartering point in their marriage problems, and this infuriates him... he's mad at himself for giving into desire and breaking his own standards, he's mad at being momentarily fooled by another human being, he's mad because what Maggie did was wrong and unfair to him (dehumanized him)... and this is why he flips out, screams at her, and tosses her out the door. (Note that Maggie's intent HAS to have been at least partly calculating, as instead of feeling wounded by Rust, she goes straight home and uses the encounter as ammo in her marriage fight; an "innocent" would have handled Rust's abuse differently, believing it to be unfair.) Rust feels so betrayed by her and mad at himself, in fact, that he pretty much avoids Maggie ever after.

That's what I got out of that episode. Of course, I think in the finale, Marty and Rust address the issue on the nose, and Marty tries to excuse Rust's sleeping with Maggie ("She said she seduced you, you really didn't want to") and Rust is like, "Everyone has a choice, Marty. We all can make our own decisions" -- refusing to be exonerated. He still blames himself for giving in and will likely never let himself off the hook.) I felt like it justified my reading of Episode 6.

What did y'all think?

I'm also scanning Rust as an Enneagram One moralist type (rigid self-discipline, stringent moral judgment of himself and others), probably an SP variant, and probably an INFJ in a harsh Ni-Ti loop where he can just reinforce his intuitions with a hard-ass Thinking process. Note his Fe use is typically utilitarian, he uses it to achieve goals especially when interrogating or interviewing people, but he never really uses it to truly connect in a personal way until 2012 -- he actually asks Marty how he is and what he's been up to, and Marty says, "I don't think you've ever asked me that before." The 2012 Rust is a bit softer, older, more open, more accepting of his humanity and the humanity of others.

+1 to the spoiled.

They're obviously attracted to each other--Rust draws out the maternal instinct in Maggie, while Maggie draws out Rust's vulnerability. This is why he was so "hurt" when he realized she betrayed/used him. That was the closest thing he had to a "real" human connection. He confided in her absolutely; something he did not do with any other character in the show. He wasn't going to let that go no matter what. And the liaison between the two was incredibly raw--probably the rawest sex scene I've seen since Halle Berry mounted Billy Bob Thornton in Monster's Ball.

As for Rust's personality type: I can see INFJ. The functions are certainly there (perhaps not in that order, however).

 

[Ivy]

Yes to both spoilers.

I'm not sure I would have been open to Rust as an INFJ until the finale but the whole picture of him certainly seems like it could be.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

Initially, I thought he was an ISTP in a Ti-Ni Loop.
Ni over Ne (i.e.: not INTP), inferior Fe perhaps.

Meh. Pick one.

Imma enjoy the video. Spoilers.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, I think it should definitely win the Best Miniseries Emmy.
AHS Coven wasn't bad, but it was still a bracket behind on this one.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I really enjoyed this show and thought it was very good. However, I'm kind of puzzled at all the OMG BEST SHOW EVERZ it's getting. I don't see it on the top rung of TV dramas along with Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, etc. It's just a very good show. It's too flawed to be great.

I really enjoyed eps 1-7, but for me the finale was a massive letdown. After episode 7, I was thinking that there was too much unresolved to have only one hour left, and I was right. There were so many hints dropped, plots started, and questions asked that just never had any resolution. I get Poindexter's and Ivy's point that those things aren't the point of the show, but I don't agree. It's one thing for a show to be endlessly debated online with people going down rabbit holes and creating meaning and narrative out of thin air that don't wind up being a part of the show, creating disappointment. That's not fair - but I don't think that's what this is. The creators of TD dug those rabbit holes, and then never went down them. To me, that's an entirely different thing.

Further explanation:

The way the finale played out, it meant a few things. It meant that Rust's time with the drug gang was a pointless red herring. It meant that the scheme with their old colleague Mike on the boat was a pointless red herring. It meant that so much of the detective work was pointless, because the whole thing hinged on two astonishingly implausible events. First, that Errol Childress could be so disfiguringly scarred to witnesses, but in reality so minimally scarred that neither of the guys thought that he was the least bit suspicious when they first interviewed him and no one in the town made the connection; second, Marty's ludicrous revelation about the green house, which is lame enough to make even a bad show feel guilty.

You can say that the show is about darkness and light, good and evil. But that's subtext. The text is the detective story. And sloppy plotting in the text lessens the impact of the subtext. I've read a bit about the creator, Nic Pizzolatto. He has taken great pains to point out that he is not a fan of Law & Order and police procedurals like it. He says (with no lack of self-satisfaction) he's trying to tell a more philosophical story. But you have to serve the text better than this if you want that to shine through. I feel like McConaughey and Harrelson were so transcendently good and the photography so beautiful and perfect that they covered up a lot of the narrative sins of the show. I mean, I'll say it again - I really liked this show. But I feel like the last episode betrayed expectations, and not expectations crazy fans cooked up; expectations the show explicitly set. I fear that without the kismet of such great performances, season 2 might show a lot more of the cracks.

 

[Lateralus]

I'm with EffEmDoubleyou.

I loved the first seven episodes and was really excited to see the finale. There was such a big build up to the end of the 7th episode, I wondered if the finale might be longer than an hour because there was so much material that needed to be wrapped up. After watching the finale, I was left with the feeling of "Really? That's it?". I can understand leaving some loose ends for public speculation, but this went to the other extreme. There was so much of the story left untold, too much. It's like Pizzolatto got tired of writing and just quit.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, I don't think the finale was as strong as some of the other episodes (and I still think BB's Ozymandias / Felina outrank these in terms of just being more carefully put together and more fulfilling).

As was said here, there was some real leaps in the finale, such as the "green ears / house" thing and the fact that the burn guy's face was horrific enough to be mentioned but on camera didn't look that bad. It was almost to the degree of "Oh, one episode left and we have too much plot left, so we need to just get to the end." All in all, it was pretty straight-forward. And a few of the lines in the last 15 minutes seemed a little too pat for me, even if I don't have an issue with characters giving ground / shifting roles. After all, we've seen signs that the older Cohle has changed / lessened in severity a bit in a few areas before the finale, so.... this is just part of his natural progression.

Realistically, of course, some things are never resolved in police work; you can convict someone without ever understanding why they did what they did or their entire psychosis. And I think the show was honest in that a lot of police work is boring and monotonous. I've watched enough true crime stuff, that it's rather amazing how many "promising leads" never pan out, and a break comes through diligent effort sometimes made across a period of years where the detectives just did not give up. Perseverence and throwing enough stuff at the wall and something finally stuck resolved the case; sometimes there is no "glamorous" or even totally fulfilling resolution. But then again, this is one advantage a story has over real life: The facts can be massaged and slanted so that the resolution is emotionally fulfilling in a way real life isn't always.

And I do share the concern about how things could differ when the acting lineup changes. I think Harrelson and McConaughey made the show work overall. Second season is up for grabs.

 

[Totenkindly]

Idiots.
Well, someone's gonna walk away disappointed this year.

AHS actually is in the "miniseries" category. Would it have been that difficult?

HBO has thrown down the gauntlet, making the decision to enter “True Detective” into the Primetime Emmy drama series categories rather than the miniseries field. It’s a statement that HBO feels it has more than a fighting chance with the Matthew McConaughey-Woody Harrelson starrer in the top series category — even against such heatseekers as “Breaking Bad,” “Mad Men,” “Homeland” and its own “Game of Thrones” and “Boardwalk Empire” — as well as the lead drama actor race.

“True Detective” likely would have had an easy trot to victory at the Emmycast in August in the miniseries category. The series fits the objective definition of a miniseries in that it is designed to be reinvented with an entirely new cast, setting and premise each year.

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/tru...-series-not-miniseries-for-emmys-1201146631/#

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

Idiots.
Well, someone's gonna walk away disappointed this year.

AHS actually is in the "miniseries" category. Would it have been that difficult?

My guess is that HBO is taking this action to stake a claim for limited run series in the regular categories. I can see a thought process predicated on the fact that "Breaking Bad" is a prohibitive favorite in the drama series category. Given this fact, a loss by "True Detective" isn't egg on anyone's face, and it sacrifices a miniseries Emmy to further the goal of legitimizing limited run series in the main categories. It's an indication to me that we'll see much more of this kind of show in the future, and an admission that the miniseries category doesn't have the prestige of the main categories.

 

[Totenkindly]

I can see a value to it in terms of future positioning, yes.

But wasn't True Detective already considered "legitimate" even as a limited run? I'm not sure people care as much about the categories in terms of determining legitimacy. Or perhaps that's me as part of the "audience" talking versus the executives and bean counters at HBO who are determining where to allocate financial resources.

 

[FigerPuppet]

I really enjoyed this show and thought it was very good. However, I'm kind of puzzled at all the OMG BEST SHOW EVERZ it's getting. I don't see it on the top rung of TV dramas along with Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, etc. It's just a very good show. It's too flawed to be great.

I really enjoyed eps 1-7, but for me the finale was a massive letdown. After episode 7, I was thinking that there was too much unresolved to have only one hour left, and I was right. There were so many hints dropped, plots started, and questions asked that just never had any resolution. I get Poindexter's and Ivy's point that those things aren't the point of the show, but I don't agree. It's one thing for a show to be endlessly debated online with people going down rabbit holes and creating meaning and narrative out of thin air that don't wind up being a part of the show, creating disappointment. That's not fair - but I don't think that's what this is. The creators of TD dug those rabbit holes, and then never went down them. To me, that's an entirely different thing.

Further explanation:

The way the finale played out, it meant a few things. It meant that Rust's time with the drug gang was a pointless red herring. It meant that the scheme with their old colleague Mike on the boat was a pointless red herring. It meant that so much of the detective work was pointless, because the whole thing hinged on two astonishingly implausible events. First, that Errol Childress could be so disfiguringly scarred to witnesses, but in reality so minimally scarred that neither of the guys thought that he was the least bit suspicious when they first interviewed him and no one in the town made the connection; second, Marty's ludicrous revelation about the green house, which is lame enough to make even a bad show feel guilty.

You can say that the show is about darkness and light, good and evil. But that's subtext. The text is the detective story. And sloppy plotting in the text lessens the impact of the subtext. I've read a bit about the creator, Nic Pizzolatto. He has taken great pains to point out that he is not a fan of Law & Order and police procedurals like it. He says (with no lack of self-satisfaction) he's trying to tell a more philosophical story. But you have to serve the text better than this if you want that to shine through. I feel like McConaughey and Harrelson were so transcendently good and the photography so beautiful and perfect that they covered up a lot of the narrative sins of the show. I mean, I'll say it again - I really liked this show. But I feel like the last episode betrayed expectations, and not expectations crazy fans cooked up; expectations the show explicitly set. I fear that without the kismet of such great performances, season 2 might show a lot more of the cracks.

The two traits that could have helped them identify Childress as their target were hidden when he was (very briefly) interviewed by Rust: The scars were covered by dirt, and his height was not noticeable because he was seated on a lawnmower. Adding on to this, it was his victims who reported Childress as being "disfiguringly scarred"; victims of traumatic, violent crimes often exaggerate unique features of the perpetrator.
The Spaghetti Monster-drawing: The green ears were an exaggeration of smudges of green paint on his face, just as the spaghetti beard was an exaggeration of his scars.

As for your tirade against the supposedly pointless red herrings, I disagree with your assertion that they were that. Rust's time with the bikers led to the confrontation with and subsequent killing of Ledoux - which turned it into a dead end in the hunt of Childress, creating the moral debt, but eliminating two people whose theme was parallel to that of Childress - and the interrogation of Geraci was a dead end in terms of catching Childress but shed more light on the extent of the conspiracy. Both were valuable to the narrative: The former justified its extension, and the latter gave it depth. Both added value. That they in the end didn't contribute to the capture of Childress does not make them pointless.

The Green Ears-connection: Why he had green paint on his ears is not important (Maybe he put his ears up against the wall to listen to the people inside), but how Hart and Rust made the connection is. It is weak, but not unimaginable:

1. They are stuck without any lead. Rust has been looking at the same crap for years, and Hart (fresh eyes) is only just getting up-to-speed on Rust's material. Rust mentions "green" in a sentence, making Hart recall the green ears on the drawing of the spaghetti monster which they were looking at earlier while he is looking at a picture amongst many of a house with walls of a faded green colour.
2. Green ears could either be 1) fake green ears, 2) green earmuffs, or 3) green paint on/around ears
3. #1 is silly. Moving on with the assumption that #2 or #3 is correct, they need to find a non-suspicious reason for the killer to be in the neighbourhood. The only non-suspicious reasons for #2 and #3 is that the killer was a painter or someone who would wear green earmuffs to work.
4. Sticking to #2. The natural consequence of this is to look at the canvassing photos to find out when the aforementioned green house was painted; if it could have been painted around the time of the kidnapping. And boom, they find their lead.

Rust, episode 5: “You know the detective’s curse? The solution was right under my nose, but I was paying attention to the wrong clues?”

Can you elaborate on what expectations "the show explicitly set"?
I hated Lost for its ending because I felt many mysteries were left unexplained - the bad luck associated with the numbers, for example. The writers also admitted making shit up as they saw fit in order to drive the main story along.
But I enjoy the loose ends of True Detective. In fact, I would have enjoyed the show less if it served viewers the answer to every mystery on a dish. Instead, due to the quality of the writing, they have been able to leave some things for the viewers to figure out themselves.
My favourite loose end in TD is the hints about Hart's daughter having been witness to or victim of something gruesome, since she is aware of the symbolism and ritual of the cult.

 

[SensEye]

I can see a value to it in terms of future positioning, yes.

But wasn't True Detective already considered "legitimate" even as a limited run? I'm not sure people care as much about the categories in terms of determining legitimacy. Or perhaps that's me as part of the "audience" talking versus the executives and bean counters at HBO who are determining where to allocate financial resources.

I'm not sure if you can switch horses in midstream, but it would be nice for True D to win the mini-series this year, then they can switch to drama series for subsequent seasons.

The main motivation to play it like this is to wait for Breaking Bad to clear the board (which IMO should win everything - it was the best executed end to end series ever). However, True D was very intense at times, so I would like to see it win some accolades. Although season 1 of True D felt a bit "abbreviated/truncated" so I understand the criticism about the season from the overall story arc perspective.

Too early to tell about True Detective if it will make "iconic" series status. It all depends on subsequent seasons. It's off to a good start, but one could have said that about Dexter too.

 

[Totenkindly]

Too early to tell about True Detective if it will make "iconic" series status. It all depends on subsequent seasons. It's off to a good start, but one could have said that about Dexter too.

Yeah, I've avoided Dexter spoilers in general, but my initial plans to maybe start watching the thing have been kind of negated by hearing in general that the series just kind of crapped out; I can't imagine more depressing news with TV shows than to know ahead of time that regardless of how good things are upfront, they just don't go anywhere in the end.

X-Files did manage to have some decent mythology arcs, and there were lots of great "stand alone" episodes, although that's another case where a decent show just kind of ran out of steam vs wrapping itself up productively.

This was different than BB, which didn't really do "stand-alones" but where everything was part of one big storyline.