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True Detective

Totenkindly

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They ran two episodes?

I set my DVR for it but haven't watched it yet.
 

rav3n

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As anticipated, it's returned to its slow burn roots. The first two episodes have been excellent. No problems suspending disbelief and immersing. The entire cast delivers a solid performance and Mahershala Ali lands it.
 

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I really hope they will start taking this season into new territory which will be needed for it to stand on its own two legs, so far it's just season 1 with a black lead.
 

rav3n

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I really hope they will start taking this season into new territory which will be needed for it to stand on its own two legs, so far it's just season 1 with a black lead.
 

Totenkindly

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Watched the first episode.

Tonally and setting, it does seem more like first season, without the dysfunctional relationship between the detectives and the crazy murders angle... more of a slow burn and more routine in terms of investigation. So, so far, Season 2 was a mess but it tried to do something different; so far this feels more like Season 1 without the crazy energy.

Ali is great, everyone seems solid. Laughed once because my mind makes random connections -- seeing Ali and Dorff drive around was like an 80's vampire detective buddy movie (Blade + Frost).

Anyway, I like the moody stark tone, and I was also 12 in 1980 in rural PA so I know that kind of world even if it's Arkansas.

I had a hunch on who the teacher was.
 

rav3n

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Watched the first episode.

Tonally and setting, it does seem more like first season, without the dysfunctional relationship between the detectives and the crazy murders angle... more of a slow burn and more routine in terms of investigation. So, so far, Season 2 was a mess but it tried to do something different; so far this feels more like Season 1 without the crazy energy.

Ali is great, everyone seems solid. Laughed once because my mind makes random connections -- seeing Ali and Dorff drive around was like an 80's vampire detective buddy movie (Blade + Frost).

Anyway, I like the moody stark tone, and I was also 12 in 1980 in rural PA so I know that kind of world even if it's Arkansas.

I had a hunch on who the teacher was.
 

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That's not new, only slightly different from how they chose to tell the story in season 1, with three perspectives instead of two. Even the setting in which the story is told is the same: an interview/deposition with the main character, a decade after the case was closed, with new developments having propelled things forward.

You both mention the lack of strangeness present in season 1, which is true, but I don't think the occultish themes are done away with completely. The title of the book Amelia had written about the case was "Life and Death and the Harvest Moon". The murder happened on a night with a full moon, but the dates of the murder (November 7th) and of the Harvest Moon (anywhere between two weeks before and after the autumnal equinox in late september) don't match up. The murder happened a month after the Harvest Moon. Therefore we saw a Hunter's Moon on the night of the murder, which is the next full moon after the Harvest Moon*. I read the names for these moons are often attributed to the native Americans. The one native American, Woodard the Trash Man, was said to have faced a tragic fate. I assume he was wrongfully convicted, and even more likely died, either by the hands of someone else or by suicide.

The corn husk dolls are also native American, in origin and design. However, it's more of a pagan thing to associate the dolls with fertility and harvest.

*Hunters would use the glow of the moon these nights to hunt deer... and fox.
 

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One of the books on Will's nightstand was called "The Forests of Leng", which is a fictional book. Leng is a place in the Chtulhu mythos, described as a "cold, arid plateau" where different realities converge. Given the fractured storytelling and the mental deterioration of Wayne over the years, resulting in three different "incarnations" of him working on the case in some capacity, each with an increasingly difficult relationship to reality, how many of you are willing to bet the story will be resolved on a cold, arid plateau in the forests of Arkansas? (Like how the story of season one was resolved in Carcosa.)
 

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There's also another angle which is interesting to discuss. The Harvest Moon festival in Asia (specifically China and Vietnam) is a time for celebration of harvest, fertility, family, union, and marriage. One of the drawings Wayne found in Julie's room, that the camera lingered on for a couple of seconds, showed a happy wedding couple and two kids. (https://i.imgur.com/6FQW1WA.jpg) The corn husk doll also looked a lot like a bride in wedding dress. Ironic given the complete destruction of the Purcell family at this point in time.

I'm speculating that Will might've had incestuous feelings towards his sister, given the peep hole in his closet. In line with the Harvest Moon theme, did he witness his sister have her period? The moon and water was connected to menstruation by the Chinese who worshipped the moon during the festivals. "Moonblood" is a pagan term for menstrual blood, and the lunar cycle has been linked to menstruation since forever.

Connecting Asian harvest festivals with the events in a rural American town might be a stretch, but who knows. Perhaps the link isn't Asian but more native American, but I haven't found much that would support that yet. Vietnam is mentioned several times in the show when talking about Wayne's and Woodard's military past, but drawing a connection between that, Asian harvest festivals and the crime might be far fetched. (However, in Vietnam, the festival is completely focused on children.) Perhaps the connections between fertility, harvest, and the full moon are more universal. The Harvest Moon was also called the Full Corn Moon by the native Americans, as corn was one of the main crops harvested.
 

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It's obvious the Trash Man isn't the killer, but I wonder if Woodard riding a go-kart was meant to mirror Errol Childress' lawnmower from season 1, kind of thrown in as a reference or red herring for the fans.
 

Totenkindly

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[Why you asking me this?]

"Well, I'm interested in the intersectionality of marginalized groups within authoritarian and systemic racist structures."

[whadafuq look]

:rofl1:

I'm speculating that Will might've had incestuous feelings towards his sister, given the peep hole in his closet.

I would need to rewatch that sequence but I was a little confused on where the peephole was viewing -- it looked almost like a lamp and sofa in the view, hence the living room and not a bedroom? But I could be wrong. Anyway, also, the uncle was staying in Will's room for awhile, so it might not have been the boy who made the peephole? And what exactly was being looked at? If it was the living room, well... WILL was sleeping in the living room at the time! The cops seem curious too, since they hit up the uncle about the Playboys that were found.

Anyway, I don't think it's the Trashman either, he seems on the level and too obvious. It's still a little difficult to tell what parts of Season 3 are truly Season 3 and what parts are tiebacks to Season 1 almost as if to say, "Hey, this is the TD that y'all know and loved, so please keep watching," and to provide little easter eggs of sorts. I think AHS as a comparison show has been all over the map in terms of ultimate quality, but at least (aside from last season) they've tried to do something really different each season out. I didn't really see Season 2's "ideas" as bad, I think the writing just became incomprehensible so that the viewer had no freaking idea where the show was even going



+ giving the most character lines that needed dead-on nuanced delivery to the least-capable dramatic actor in the season was a huge mistake.

Not that I am disliking this season. It just can't avoid obvious reverberations back to Season 1, it seems very similar but "less than" in a way. Maybe that will change if further episodes allow it to differentiate itself. I'm with you on the timeline thing -- yes, it's cool they are doing three timelines, but that isn't different than Season 1, it's just the same idea expanded out. Personally, I like that idea. (Ever watch Oculus by Mike Flanagan? but there's been other films that do the same -- Oculus is great in that it flips back and forth between time periods and you can still totally track where you are at any given moment without real confusion, as a viewer. But you're setting up reverberations and it allows for the generation of mystery and the resolution of mystery.) But it is not "new," it is just yet again another Season 1 device that is being expanded upon.
 

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[Why you asking me this?]

"Well, I'm interested in the intersectionality of marginalized groups within authoritarian and systemic racist structures."

[whadafuq look]

:rofl1:
Great scene.

I would need to rewatch that sequence but I was a little confused on where the peephole was viewing -- it looked almost like a lamp and sofa in the view, hence the living room and not a bedroom? But I could be wrong. Anyway, also, the uncle was staying in Will's room for awhile, so it might not have been the boy who made the peephole? And what exactly was being looked at? If it was the living room, well... WILL was sleeping in the living room at the time! The cops seem curious too, since they hit up the uncle about the Playboys that were found.
https://i.imgur.com/VvzO2l3.png

Definitely the girl's room. And yeah, it could've been the uncle, but I'm mainly hesitant about the uncle being guilty of anything because it seems too easy an answer. Tom's parents did however mention that there had been speculation about Julie being an illegitimate child conceived when Tom was working offshore. Is her own father involved in the abduction? Doubtful, that wouldn't explain why Will died and the necessity of the dolls. Did Lucy sleep with her cousin, making her pregnant with Julie? Incest isn't a strange theme in True Detective, and Lucy's cousin Dan said something strange when questioned by the detectives. "I mean, my opinion? Lucy always needed like a strong male."


Anyway, I don't think it's the Trashman either, he seems on the level and too obvious. It's still a little difficult to tell what parts of Season 3 are truly Season 3 and what parts are tiebacks to Season 1 almost as if to say, "Hey, this is the TD that y'all know and loved, so please keep watching," and to provide little easter eggs of sorts. I think AHS as a comparison show has been all over the map in terms of ultimate quality, but at least (aside from last season) they've tried to do something really different each season out. I didn't really see Season 2's "ideas" as bad, I think the writing just became incomprehensible so that the viewer had no freaking idea where the show was even going



+ giving the most character lines that needed dead-on nuanced delivery to the least-capable dramatic actor in the season was a huge mistake.
Errol Childress also made his first appearance in the third episode of season 1 as a seemingly insignificant character. Keep your eyes peeled when watching the next episode. :D

Not that I am disliking this season. It just can't avoid obvious reverberations back to Season 1, it seems very similar but "less than" in a way. Maybe that will change if further episodes allow it to differentiate itself. I'm with you on the timeline thing -- yes, it's cool they are doing three timelines, but that isn't different than Season 1, it's just the same idea expanded out. Personally, I like that idea. (Ever watch Oculus by Mike Flanagan? but there's been other films that do the same -- Oculus is great in that it flips back and forth between time periods and you can still totally track where you are at any given moment without real confusion, as a viewer. But you're setting up reverberations and it allows for the generation of mystery and the resolution of mystery.) But it is not "new," it is just yet again another Season 1 device that is being expanded upon.
This is my feeling too. I enjoyed these two episodes but season 1 was lightning in a bottle and can't be recaptured just by using the same building blocks.
 

Totenkindly

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Great scene.

The funny thing is that I just finished the rest of the episode, and while 2015 Wayne acts as if there was no racism in 1980's or 1990's, the 1980's Wayne feels it like a chip on his shoulder, after he accosts Roland about not reining in his "tribe" per se. It's hard to tell what's his memory and what he's just glossing over.

(I might have missed some nuance, but I didn't really grasp overt racism in those scenes per se incidentally; it seemed more about administrative positions vs the guys out on the beat trying to make things happen and happen well.)

Definitely the girl's room.

yeah, I just read some recaps, so that seems to be the room.

And yeah, it could've been the uncle, but I'm mainly hesitant about the uncle being guilty of anything because it seems too easy an answer. Tom's parents did however mention that there had been speculation about Julie being an illegitimate child conceived when Tom was working offshore.

yes. That got shot down real fast by the grandfather but the question lingers as to who the real father might be, if not Tom.

BTW, I think Tom is great. Some of his performance was a little one-note angry, but the script gives him much better play halfway through the episode, like the scene at the tool shop + his conversation with the detectives in the car. It's how he deals with grief. At least, that's what we think, depending on whether he's involved... But he scans at least in those sequences as the bereft and agonized father who has nothing without his kids because it was the only connection he had in life (as he didn't really know his wife). he's completely floating free in the universe now, without any mooring, and it frightens him as well as strips him of everything.

Is her own father involved in the abduction? Doubtful, that wouldn't explain why Will died and the necessity of the dolls.

Yeah, I think it pretty unlikely. The only question I have about that is the allusion to



Did Lucy sleep with her cousin, making her pregnant with Julie? Incest isn't a strange theme in True Detective, and Lucy's cousin Dan said something strange when questioned by the detectives. "I mean, my opinion? Lucy always needed like a strong male."

It's definitely a possibility. He didn't seem like an awful guy but definitely there's a lot of stuff not being said there.

Errol Childress also made his first appearance in the third episode of season 1 as a seemingly insignificant character. Keep your eyes peeled when watching the next episode. :D

It's been a few years since I watched Season 1, where did he appear? The recaps weren't saying, at least the ones I read. I did catch the allusions to Season 1 stuff / related topics, though.


This is my feeling too. I enjoyed these two episodes but season 1 was lightning in a bottle and can't be recaptured just by using the same building blocks.

I would say one of the differences is the severity of Wayne's memory loss, it throws a unique kink into things.

One thing I like about TD is how there are red herrings -- it's at least trying to suggest how difficult and exhaustive police work actually is. Most TV shows seem to make police work look easy or intuitive, but so much of it is laborious chasing down information and leads and THEN having to sift through it and decide what is relevant or irrelevant. TD usually offers a number of possible leads and most will go nowhere, which is frustrating for both the cops and the viewers but is part of the difficulty in investigative work. i also like how the episode alludes to certain things being true (like the pedophile rings) some of which was later determined IRL to be false. Fact and hearsay often gets muddled, so "true things" end up being blown out of proportion or give rise to conspiracy concepts. This is exacerbated even more today with the internet.

Another thing I liked about Episode 2-- the conversation between Wayne and Amelia at the bar. They might be very different, in their background and even their politics, but both seem to immediately be very open with each other. IOW, they like each other, and they seem to be very honest and WANTING to communicate even if they both have different styles. It's obvious they are in sync with each other and want to connect. It was a great conversation. I also picked up on the heroes that Wayne likes and they seem like two that would resonate with his character.
 

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The funny thing is that I just finished the rest of the episode, and while 2015 Wayne acts as if there was no racism in 1980's or 1990's, the 1980's Wayne feels it like a chip on his shoulder, after he accosts Roland about not reining in his "tribe" per se. It's hard to tell what's his memory and what he's just glossing over.

(I might have missed some nuance, but I didn't really grasp overt racism in those scenes per se incidentally; it seemed more about administrative positions vs the guys out on the beat trying to make things happen and happen well.)
I think the joke was that this lady was so removed from the reality of racism and could only talk about it in a slough of buzzwords. "Well, I'm interested in the intersectionality of marginalized groups within authoritarian and systemic racist structures." hardly comes close to describing whatever racism Wayne might've experienced, it's just classroom drivel to him. Rewatching the scene, I can't see any racism in it either, and in fact Roland does most of the talking and pleading with the higher ups to let them go through with their idea, despite getting flak from Wayne about not doing enough. Not sure what the scene mentioning the "tribe" was trying to achieve. Themes of race have been introduced and mentioned a couple of times in the show and it'd be interesting to see where they take it, but that scene in particular made little sense to me as they were just as dismissive of Roland as of Wayne. Perhaps 1980 Wayne thinks of it as racism, and 2015 Wayne has another idea.


yes. That got shot down real fast by the grandfather but the question lingers as to who the real father might be, if not Tom.
I read that as him basically admitting that was what he suspected/knew as well, but not wanting to add to the misery of the moment.

BTW, I think Tom is great. Some of his performance was a little one-note angry, but the script gives him much better play halfway through the episode, like the scene at the tool shop + his conversation with the detectives in the car. It's how he deals with grief. At least, that's what we think, depending on whether he's involved... But he scans at least in those sequences as the bereft and agonized father who has nothing without his kids because it was the only connection he had in life (as he didn't really know his wife). he's completely floating free in the universe now, without any mooring, and it frightens him as well as strips him of everything.
The possibility of Julie being an illegitimate child makes the whole thing even more tragic.


Yeah, I think it pretty unlikely. The only question I have about that is the allusion to

I missed this. When did they mention it?

It's definitely a possibility. He didn't seem like an awful guy but definitely there's a lot of stuff not being said there.
Wayne says in the first episode "The general rule is, everybody's lying." I think this is gonna be a theme in this season.

It's been a few years since I watched Season 1, where did he appear? The recaps weren't saying, at least the ones I read. I did catch the allusions to Season 1 stuff / related topics, though.
Third episode, when Rust and Marty goes to check up on a school owned by the Tuttles.


(At about 28 seconds, the fence obscures the sign to make it say "Notice king". Also notice how he's driving the lawnmover in circles/spirals.)

I would say one of the differences is the severity of Wayne's memory loss, it throws a unique kink into things.
I'm wondering what significance this will have to the story, as Pizzolatto has explicitly said that this aspect of his character won't be used as an unreliable narrator device.

One thing I like about TD is how there are red herrings -- it's at least trying to suggest how difficult and exhaustive police work actually is. Most TV shows seem to make police work look easy or intuitive, but so much of it is laborious chasing down information and leads and THEN having to sift through it and decide what is relevant or irrelevant. TD usually offers a number of possible leads and most will go nowhere, which is frustrating for both the cops and the viewers but is part of the difficulty in investigative work. i also like how the episode alludes to certain things being true (like the pedophile rings) some of which was later determined IRL to be false. Fact and hearsay often gets muddled, so "true things" end up being blown out of proportion or give rise to conspiracy concepts. This is exacerbated even more today with the internet.
They even mention the "crooked spirals" being signifiers of pedophile rings, which suggests this season takes place in the same universe as the first.

Another thing I liked about Episode 2-- the conversation between Wayne and Amelia at the bar. They might be very different, in their background and even their politics, but both seem to immediately be very open with each other. IOW, they like each other, and they seem to be very honest and WANTING to communicate even if they both have different styles. It's obvious they are in sync with each other and want to connect. It was a great conversation. I also picked up on the heroes that Wayne likes and they seem like two that would resonate with his character.
Yeah, there was a kind of intangible but noticeable chemistry even in their first meeting, and when they first met in an off-duty setting they went straight to getting to know each other on a deeper level than what is common.

-

I have a feeling that the death of Will and disappearance of Julie might not be the evil doings of some cult or group of powerful people with twisted perversions this time. The dolls and the Harvest Moon might just be red herrings. In season trailers #1 and #2, we see Tom beating the shit out of somebody in a rage. We see Woodard being chased by a car, and pulled out of his go-kart to get beaten. The interviewer lady asks Wayne if he's ever thought about the sheer number of casualties this case brought. The subtitle of Amelia's book is "Murder, a child abduction, and the community it destroyed". When we see Wayne and his son pull up to the community center in 2015, it's abandoned and decrepit. I think perhaps this season will be more about how the small community reacts to the incident and proceeds to destroy itself, and the cultist stuff is just to throw the viewers off scent. The dolls could've just been what the child told the detectives - halloween candy substitute. (The trailer also shows Wayne going through a child's backpack, and in it is the gameboy [or whatever] that Mike was playing on in the schoolyard. Amelia also mentions Mike might've had a crush on Julie. He might know more than what he's letting on.)
 

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Episode 3

 

Totenkindly

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I watched Episode 3 last Monday. I guess the new one is currently running but I'm recording it and usually watch it at a later time.

Yeah, there definitely seems to have been a cover up -- it's just unclear who it was perpetuated by. We know the car and the mixed-race couple was never followed up on. Was it incompetence or purposeful? There's a lot of questions left to be answered here, including what mystery we're actually trying to find the answers to.

Kudos to the D&D dice, I think one of them was even the type you color in with a crayon, just like my Basic/Expert boxed sets. For some reason I'm thinking there were some clearer ones there too but I don't think those were sold for some years after, everything was the really flat/boring colors that you had to color in, back in 1980. I guess that was a manufacturing issue at the time.

Yeah, I'm not sure how deep Amelia is in any of them. She could just be an overzealous author heady with her own detective prowess or.... something more? I dunno.
 

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Episode 4

 

Totenkindly

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Episode 5 was pretty decent. There was some physical activity, some advancement in the case theories, and the last 15 minutes or so was on par with that earlier restaurant scene between Wade and Amelia, from a character perspective.

 

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Episode 5 was pretty decent. There was some physical activity, some advancement in the case theories, and the last 15 minutes or so was on par with that earlier restaurant scene between Wade and Amelia, from a character perspective.



 
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