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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I hate the effects of it. She is also rejected by most philosophy departments, and I loathe the principles of her philosophy and also don't agree (I agree with some things I loathe). Her ideas on art are basically the same as the fascist dictators of the 20th century. Any images and processes she doesn't understand she dismisses.

    Also, her approach is NOT objectivism. It is a process of expanding the ego/Self to encompass the entire concept of reality. It would be more accurate to call it "Subjectivism", but the most accurate term is "Egoism".
    There's some truth and falsehood to all that. The true part is, Objectivists are admitted solipsists.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I hate the effects of it. She is also rejected by most philosophy departments, and I loathe the principles of her philosophy and also don't agree (I agree with some things I loathe). Her ideas on art are basically the same as the fascist dictators of the 20th century. Any images and processes she doesn't understand she dismisses.

    Also, her approach is NOT objectivism. It is a process of expanding the ego/Self to encompass the entire concept of reality. It would be more accurate to call it "Subjectivism", but the most accurate term is "Egoism".
    I don't expect my opinion to change upon reading it, but I just think... "well, you haven't read it" is actually a fair criticism. If my own outlook on the world can't survive a doorstopper novel, it isn't strong enough to begin with.

    I suspect you are correct, but I suppose I would like to learn why you are correct.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I hate the effects of it. She is also rejected by most philosophy departments, and I loathe the principles of her philosophy and also don't agree (I agree with some things I loathe). Her ideas on art are basically the same as the fascist dictators of the 20th century. Any images and processes she doesn't understand she dismisses.

    Also, her approach is NOT objectivism. It is a process of expanding the ego/Self to encompass the entire concept of reality. It would be more accurate to call it "Subjectivism", but the most accurate term is "Egoism".
    "Objectivism" is just an answer to the problem of Universals. And that answer is: the so-called problem of Universals is falsely premised. The real world is objective because you can't prove otherwise without self-contradiction.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Member Umbriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Which version?
    Haha well, they're meant to be anyway. If the Bible was marketed as a book of ancient stories it would be ok.

  5. #35
    Member Umbriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I'll rage against those 3 any day.

    Why has communism been the worst thing ever? Where do I begin? I guess the first thing is that communism simply makes no economic sense. Everything else stems from that. The state has to assume absolute control over people's lives and turn them into worthless slaves in order to make such an "economy" turn. Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. Cesescu (sp). North Korea. Whoever wAs in charge of east Germany. Others I can't think of right now. Their brutality was STAGGERING. HORRIFYING. IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTATE.
    Then don't you mean "pain" and "stupidity" are the worst things ever? It's not just communism that makes those.

  6. #36
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    "Objectivism" is just an answer to the problem of Universals. And that answer is: the so-called problem of Universals is falsely premised. The real world is objective because you can't prove otherwise without self-contradiction.
    The activities of the human, mind, however, is not. I have witnessed people destroy their lives due in part (and only in part), to a poor understanding of the different facets of the relationship between the activities of their mind and the facts of the outside world. The emotional reactions of others are facts as well, as much as gold mines, oil wells, shipping, or real estate. We can measure the success or failure of things by their effects. The effects are hard to dispute by anyone with enough experience and understanding regarding humans.

    I suspect that, once I read Ayn Rand, I will continue to find Mindfullness to be far more useful than Objectivism. But I would like to know for certain. I think my framework can stand up. If it can't, then I need to build a better one, anyway.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    The activities of the human, mind, however, is not. I have witnessed people destroy their lives due in part (and only in part), to a poor understanding of the different facets of the relationship between the activities of their mind and the facts of the outside world. The emotional reactions of others are facts as well, as much as gold mines, oil wells, shipping, or real estate. We can measure the success or failure of things by their effects. The effects are hard to dispute by anyone with enough experience and understanding regarding humans.

    I suspect that, once I read Ayn Rand, I will continue to find Mindfullness to be far more useful than Objectivism. But I would like to know for certain. I think my framework can stand up. If it can't, then I need to build a better one, anyway.
    Objectivist theory of emotions:

    Your subconscious is like a computer—more complex a computer than men can build—and its main function is the integration of your ideas. Who programs it? Your conscious mind. If you default, if you don't reach any firm convictions, your subconscious is programmed by chance—and you deliver yourself into the power of ideas you do not know you have accepted. But one way or the other, your computer gives you print-outs, daily and hourly, in the form of emotions—which are lightning-like estimates of the things around you, calculated according to your values. If you programmed your computer by conscious thinking, you know the nature of your values and emotions. If you didn't, you don't.

    The Ayn Rand Letter
    Vol. III, No. 7 December 31, 1973
    Philosophy: Who Needs It
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #38
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Objectivist theory of emotions:

    Your subconscious is like a computer—more complex a computer than men can build—and its main function is the integration of your ideas. Who programs it? Your conscious mind. If you default, if you don't reach any firm convictions, your subconscious is programmed by chance—and you deliver yourself into the power of ideas you do not know you have accepted. But one way or the other, your computer gives you print-outs, daily and hourly, in the form of emotions—which are lightning-like estimates of the things around you, calculated according to your values. If you programmed your computer by conscious thinking, you know the nature of your values and emotions. If you didn't, you don't.
    Computers require input. A device that creates output, and refuses to accept input, is a device of limited utility indeed. What is being described makes me think of a program stuck in an infinite loop. It's certainly immovable, and I suppose that could be considered strength. But how useful is it?

    Convictions are praiseworthy only if the results of those convictions are praiseworthy. I'm sure the Stalinists that caused her family to leave Russia had lots of firm convictions, but I don't consider that grounds to applaud them, and I doubt you do, either.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Computers require input. A device that creates output, and refuses to accept input, is a device of limited utility indeed. What is being described makes me think of a program stuck in an infinite loop. It's certainly immovable, and I suppose that could be considered strength. But how useful is it?

    Convictions are praiseworthy only if the results of those convictions are praiseworthy. I'm sure the Stalinists that caused her family to leave Russia had lots of firm convictions, but I don't consider that grounds to applaud them, and I doubt you do, either.
    The quotation isn't taking it that far. It's only discussing emotions, not the rightness or wrongness of the subconscious premises that create them. It says these premises are created consciously or unconsciously, i.e., either you programmed your subconscious or it was programmed by chance.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #40
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Good read, but a bit repetitive and long. She tends to make the same point over and over again.

    I suspect the John Galt speech might be the longest rant in literature. Someone told me that the audio version of the rant was 2 hours long.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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