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Elysium

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It's hard to take Elysium that seriously. One of the villains of the piece actually said, "Don't let that dying irradiating guy ruin the bedsheets in the hospital ward, I don't want to pay for new ones."

Well, welcome to the real world. Such scenes happen everyday and are commonplace outside the Western world.

And sometimes it's even worst than that. But it's funny that you can't take it seriously or that you consider it lacks nuance. The real world lacks nuance, and nuance is a class privilege.


Tell me: who did assemble your computer? Have you been into a Chinese factory?

In 2013, the average fate of mankind is being a semi-slave living in a slum.
It's already happening, it's already there. There's nothing really new within this movie.

And I do not think it's a story about good vs evil (the real world is neither bad or good), but rather about people who have a kind of tunnel vision syndrome. And it affects the poor as well as the rich: each one tries to do what's best for their immediate surroundings first. Each one tries to survive in their own way.
 

SolitaryWalker

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In 2013, the majority of mankind already lives in slums, and many of them are considerably worst than the one pictured in Mexico City.


Though it would seem that there is a difference between the quality of lives of Mexicans and residents of Niger, that is between the citizens of a developing and a severely underdeveloped nation. The Elysium scenario seemingly overlooked that distinction, though I am unsure how important it is.
 

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Well, welcome to the real world. Such scenes happen everyday and are commonplace outside the Western world.

And sometimes it's even worst than that. But it's funny that you can't take it seriously or that you consider it lacks nuance. The real world lacks nuance, and nuance is a class privilege.


Tell me: who did assemble your computer? Have you been into a Chinese factory?

In 2013, the average fate of mankind is being a semi-slave living in a slum.
It's already happening, it's already there. There's nothing really new within this movie.

Again, I'm approaching this from a scriptwriting POV and as a constructed piece, not in the framework in which you are discussing it.

Bottom line: This movie is not winning any awards for the writing, even if you believe it is somehow "authentic to some parts of the world." Movies are condensed/concentrated snapshots of life, and this kind of cliche didn't contribute anything new or memorable to the discussion.

And I do not think it's a story about good vs evil (the real world is neither bad or good), but rather about people who have a kind of tunnel vision syndrome. And it affects the poor as well as the rich: each one tries to do what's best for their immediate surroundings first. Each one tries to survive in its own way.

I do find that point to be a useful consideration. There was a lot of Western response assuming that the director was trying to label the rich as evil and the poor as good.

So what makes you think that the director was being neutral, vs actually painting a pretty stark picture against the rich? I have trouble remembering a situation where the poor were seen as villains per se. In fact, they seemed to be highlighted as heroes (even including the "noble death" of Max's friend Julio (?)), and pretty much every time there was a rich person, they were treated at best as oblivious and self-absorbed, and at worst as pathetically selfish and oppressive.

The psycho mercenaries were perhaps amoral in presentation. They just worked for whoever paid them but killed indiscriminately.
 

SolitaryWalker

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There was a lot of Western response assuming that the director was trying to label the rich as evil and the poor as good.

In that scenario, it seemed like an apt criticism. After all, the rich oppressed the poor who fought for a more humane politico-economic regime. There was an implicit argument that the poor were doing good and the rich were doing evil, but there was no argument that the two socio-economic classes could not have switched roles as that was simply outside of the purview of the plot.

So what makes you think that the director was being neutral,

We could say that he was being neutral in the sense that he made a defensible judgment that in this given situation, the poor were fighting for justice. It would have been obvious that he was not neutral if the director clearly implied that the poor were by their nature incapable of doing evil and the rich were incapable of doing good. The producer also implied that scenarios similar to Elysium occurred in countless countries of the developing world and that again, can be interpreted as an objective observation of the politico-economic realities of the modern world.

actually painting a pretty stark picture against the rich?

I don't think he was painting a picture of the characters of the rich as much as their actions in a specific situation that is quite pertinent to the plight of the enormous wealth disparities plaguing the modern world.

I have trouble remembering a situation where the poor were seen as villains per se.

Would it make any sense to portray them as villains when the rich were perpetrating the majority of the severest atrocities in the plot? I am going with Blackmail on this one, the theme had little to do with good vs evil and everything to do with two socio-economic classes acting in their political self-interest by attempting to undermine their nemesis class. This takes us back to my earlier analysis that the opposition between the prosperous and the indigent is immitigable and when given the opportunity, both classes will oppress their opponent. In the Elysium scenario and in most developing and the severely underdeveloped countries, that is also the case.

In fact, they seemed to be highlighted as heroes (even including the "noble death" of Max's friend Julio (?)),

Perhaps the rich would have been highlighted as heroes if a sequel to the Elysium was released. In such a scenario, we'd probably see the rich as the peaceful residents of a society dominated by populist rabblerousers and chaotic mobs of formerly penurious citizens who loot, pilfer and deprive the formerly privileged members of society of not only their legitimately acquired property, but also of their inalienable individual rights. You're making a fundamental attribution error by assuming that because the poor were acting virtuously and the rich behaved in a morally deplorable fashion, it must be because the former are by their "morally heroic" and the latter are are deserving of our most vigorous moral condemnations. In a lot of cases, people do things because of their circumstances and not because of the integrity of their character or a lack thereof.





and pretty much every time there was a rich person, they were treated at best as oblivious and self-absorbed, and at worst as pathetically selfish and oppressive.

Isn't that a fairly accurate picture of most members of today's ruling class, especially those of the severely underdeveloped countries? We have a ruling class in the U.S too, but their freedoms to oppress the underprivileged are much more limited than they are in the "Bottom Billion" countries, to borrow Paul Collier's term.



The psycho mercenaries were perhaps amoral in presentation.

The role of the mercenaries in the plot should be interpreted literally, they represented themselves and not the elites. It is also rather typical for the ruling class to employ the services of mercenaries and such mercenaries often display distinctive psychopathic traits.


They just worked for whoever paid them but killed indiscriminately.

How is this element of the plot misleading about today's politico-economic realities? Do you expect the mercenaries to have a different attitude?
 

Azure Flame

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Have you ever studied in Harvard, Berkeley, Yale or Princeton?

I think it's time to realize that it's almost impossible to reach the world where I live for ordinary guys like you. Be realistic, and guess why.
We simply do not share the same cultural capital.

No but I did go to the US Naval Academy and am the owner of a Gym.
 

Evil Otter

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So basically....

Rich people are EVIL THE MOVIE!!

But you forgot also that we can all get something for nothing, apparently have an unlimited supply of resources, and


I'm willing to suspend belief for a movie but come on, at least follow your own ****ing rules once you make them up. This movie seriously pissed me off. I don't want to pay my money to have some mindless political message force fed to me about how evil (misrepresented) rational egoism is by a bunch of extremely wealthy actors and producers/directors. If your socialist system is so damn good then why hasn't it worked in any time or place where it's been tried. For **** sake, get the hell out of the way and let us "selfish bastards" actually make this world a better place. **** it, who is John Galt?
 

SolitaryWalker

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But you forgot also that we can all get something for nothing, apparently have an unlimited supply of resources, and


I'm willing to suspend belief for a movie but come on, at least follow your own ****ing rules once you make them up. This movie seriously pissed me off. I don't want to pay my money to have some mindless political message force fed to me about how evil (misrepresented) rational egoism is by a bunch of extremely wealthy actors and producers/directors. If your socialist system is so damn good then why hasn't it worked in any time or place where it's been tried. For **** sake, get the hell out of the way and let us "selfish bastards" actually make this world a better place. **** it, who is John Galt?

Socialism is a complex phenomenon and one does not need to be a socialist to sympathize with the Elysium theme. Whether or not a political system fails or succeeds has a great deal to do with the setting where it was implemented. For example, Marxism led to social democracy in Sweden, but to totalitarianism in Russia. Some conceptions of socialism would portray Germany and Finland as socialist states, but they are not by any means failed states.
 

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Socialism is a complex phenomenon and one does not need to be a socialist to sympathize with the Elysium theme. Whether or not a political system fails or succeeds has a great deal to do with the setting where it was implemented. For example, Marxism led to social democracy in Sweden, but to totalitarianism in Russia. Some conceptions of socialism would portray Germany and Finland as socialist states, but they are not by any means failed states.

They're not exactly world powers either. Why should America regress to something lesser than itself?
 

Beorn

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Unfortunately, it's not a cliche.

The real world is even worst than that, and I've witnessed similar scenes countless times in Asia or Africa, in countries or situations where indeed, you have no middle class. The ruling class is most of the time totally impervious to any human feeling, and they rule with an iron fist.
This movie is disappointing somehow because this is isn't science fiction, and yet, it's not realistic enough (especially because you have a good ending and tons of fluffy feelings). This kind of segregation is already happening everywhere, and the Western world is Elysium. We live in a surreal bubble of prosperity and most of the American audience doesn't seem to be really aware of it, or of the huge price the rest of mankind pays to maintain the so-called "American way of life". We are aristocrats and dilletantes, compared to what happens everywhere else.

In 2013, the majority of mankind already lives in slums, and many of them are considerably worst than the one pictured in Mexico City.

The problem with those places is not fundementally that they are poor as poor is to some extent a relative term. In fact the poor around the world own trillions of dollars in assets. The problem is they live in countries with poor legal systems and corrupt governments so those assets are locked up and they are not able to make the best use of a market system. Thus only the rich in those countries and multinationals have the means to access the government so that they profit off of the property they own.
 

SolitaryWalker

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They're not exactly world powers either. Why should America regress to something lesser than itself?

What makes us superior to them? That we have a stronger military? Does that make North Korea superior to these countries too?
 

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What makes us superior to them? That we have a stronger military? Does that make North Korea superior to these countries too?

The US economy makes us better than them. The fact that I own the products of my mind makes us better than them. And the ideal that I shouldn't have to pay for your food makes us better than them. Who said anything about the military? Rational egoism limits the use of force or threat thereof to strictly defensive purposes to be used only against the aggressor.
 

SolitaryWalker

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The US economy makes us better than them.

In what way is our economy better when the U.S GNP is actually lower than that of many "socialist" countries, our system of education is vastly inferior to theirs and our health-care system leaves much to be desired.

The fact that I own the products of my mind makes us better than them.

I have no idea what you meant there. You own the products of your mind? You're saying that in America, you can be a self-made man and in a socialist state you cannot be?

And the ideal that I shouldn't have to pay for your food makes us better than them.

Let me take it a step further for you, I bet you'd support a policy that terminates all social services including the unemployment benefit. Guess where this has been tried before: Bangladesh. In 2001, the nation achieved a 98.5% employment rate at the expense of massive brain-waste: a sizable portion of the population was looking for work by all means necessary. Hence, highly skilled professionals were compelled to forsake their careers to maintain a steady flow of income by accepting menial jobs. The consequences for the economy were disastrous and this is the direction we will be heading in if we continue to cut back social services. To achieve economic growth, we must exploit our human capital to the maximum and driving a substantial portion of the work-force into less productive work will undermine the prosperity of this nation. The welfare system must be restructured, not done away with: it must aim to put its beneficiaries back into the work-force in occupations that are the most likely to engender growth.




Rational egoism limits the use of force or threat thereof to strictly defensive purposes to be used only against the aggressor.

That's obviously not the way the U.S military operates today and there is no doctrine of rational egoism. The term you were probably looking for was enlightened self-interest and most people find it in their interest to serve the public good. A sizable percentage of business and government leaders are psychopaths and that's a well documented fact, they'd like you to believe that you should focus exclusively on your own interests, but most people tend not to be satisfied with that. The psychopath leaders will then need to take a step back and sell the invisible hand demagoguery by thoroughly misconstruing Adam Smith's doctrine who in fact argued that government intervention was often needed in order to achieve as much of a perfect competition within the economy as possible.
 

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In what way is our economy better when the U.S GNP is actually lower than that of many "socialist" countries, our system of education is vastly inferior to theirs and our health-care system leaves much to be desired.

I have no idea what you meant there. You own the products of your mind? You're saying that in America, you can be a self-made man and in a socialist state you cannot be?

Let me take it a step further for you, I bet you'd support a policy that terminates all social services including the unemployment benefit. Guess where this has been tried before: Bangladesh. In 2001, the nation achieved a 98.5% employment rate at the expense of massive brain-waste: a sizable portion of the population was looking for work by all means necessary. Hence, highly skilled professionals were compelled to forsake their careers to maintain a steady flow of income by accepting menial jobs. The consequences for the economy were disastrous and this is the direction we will be heading in if we continue to cut back social services. To achieve economic growth, we must exploit our human capital to the maximum and driving a substantial portion of the work-force into less productive work will undermine the prosperity of this nation. The welfare system must be restructured, not done away with: it must aim to put its beneficiaries back into the work-force in occupations that are the most likely to engender growth.

That's obviously not the way the U.S military operates today and there is no doctrine of rational egoism. The term you were probably looking for was enlightened self-interest and most people find it in their interest to serve the public good. A sizable percentage of business and government leaders are psychopaths and that's a well documented fact, they'd like you to believe that you should focus exclusively on your own interests, but most people tend not to be satisfied with that. The psychopath leaders will then need to take a step back and sell the invisible hand demagoguery by thoroughly misconstruing Adam Smith's doctrine who in fact argued that government intervention was often needed in order to achieve as much of a perfect competition within the economy as possible.

Sure GNP not the best in the world at 41st (using the stat that helps your argument, that's a just tactic by the way), GDP however is #1. Go figure.

And yes I do support ditching all government sponsored social services, I'm not from Bangladesh, I don't feel like researching it and based on your demonstrated bias toward details that benefit your argument while ignoring others I'm going to go ahead and assume you're doing the same here. There's no reason that a doctor shouldn't be working as a doctor unless A) he can be paid more doing something else or B) there are more doctors than available positions and the employed doctors are better at it than he is. What it does do is eradicate this notion that someone can sit on their ass and have the "government" take care of them. But it's not really the government doing anything, rather it's the tax payer being forced to pay said worthless welfare redneck so he can do nothing but watch Judge Judy and drink some piss beer
 

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[MENTION=14179]SolitaryWalker[/MENTION]
Also you're number 1 and 2 countries for GNP are Yemen and Iraq, so I guess you should live there

And I'm using rational egoism as it has been presented by a few different philosophers who I agree with on the subject. I'm not looking for any other term. And I'm not arguing that the U.S. military is perfect or that my ideal is the system it uses. Why this obsession with the military though? I don't see the relevance to anything I've said.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Sure GNP not the best in the world at 41st (using the stat that helps your argument, that's a just tactic by the way), GDP however is #1. Go figure.


I am not down-playing the accomplishments of the U.S economy, just saying that in many respect, they are often matched and even surpassed by countries with mixed politico-economic infrastructures such as Germany, Sweden or Finland. All of this goes to show that your claim that the U.S economy is superior to theirs is rather dubious.


There no reason that a doctor shouldn't be working as a doctor unless he can A) be paid more doing something else

There is more to the human picture than the desire to maximize profit, if there wasn't, low-paying service jobs would have been notoriously understaffed as the highly capable people working them would have sought out employment elsewhere. Think of how many intelligent and capable individuals prefer to work as teachers rather than as the substantially better paid accountants or lawyers? We're not going to entice more young people to become doctors, the salaries are already two to three times as high as they are in other countries. If a salary of over a million dollars is insufficient of an incentive for someone to take up a profession and that person settles for a much lower paying job, odds are that raising the salary to five million won't lead him to become a physician. We need to broaden our understanding of what motivates people to pursue occupations that are vital to the public good and economic growth. That is, we need to look for non-pecuniary methods of enticing more people to become doctors because financial rewards are merely a necessary but an insufficient condition for solving our physician shortage problem.





What it does do is eradicate this notion that someone can sit on their ass and have the "government" take care of them.

We can eradicate that notion by minimizing government hand-outs and providing the welfare beneficiaries with the training that will equip them with marketable skills. If a recipient of the training fails to re-enter the work-force after a certain period of time, they should be deprived of all financial and training benefits. Removing the welfare system altogether will only create a Thai-style blossoming black-market economy. Do you want your welfare barnacle entering the illicit drug or sex market instead of freeloading off the tax payers? Why not give him the opportunity and the incentive to stand on his two feet? The welfare reform that I've proposed does exactly that.


[MENTION=14179]SolitaryWalker[/MENTION]
Also you're number 1 and 2 countries for GNP are Yemen and Iraq, so I guess you should live there

Moot point, there are other ways of showing that the superiority of the U.S economy to that of the Germany is questionable.

Cite your source anyways, I want to take a look.
 

Evil Otter

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Evil Otter

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There is more to the human picture than the desire to maximize profit, if there wasn't, low-paying service jobs would have been notoriously understaffed as the highly capable people working them would have sought out employment elsewhere. Think of how many intelligent and capable individuals prefer to work as teachers rather than as the substantially better paid accountants or lawyers? We're not going to entice more young people to become doctors, the salaries are already two to three times as high as they are in other countries. If a salary of over a million dollars is insufficient of an incentive for someone to take up a profession and that person settles for a much lower paying job, odds are that raising the salary to five million won't lead him to become a physician. We need to broaden our understanding of what motivates people to pursue occupations that are vital to the public good and economic growth. That is, we need to look for non-pecuniary methods of enticing more people to become doctors because financial rewards are merely a necessary but an insufficient condition for solving our physician shortage problem.

Your right, humans want more than just to maximize profit. We want to maximize happiness and some very smart individuals are satisfied with low paying teaching jobs and the like. No issue there. But again the whole system should be at it's most competitive state. Why hire some third-rate teacher if Albert Einstein wants to teach your physics class and is better at it?
 

Blackmail!

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No but I did go to the US Naval Academy and am the owner of a Gym.

That's what I said: we do not belong to the same world.

Reaching a status similar to mine is almost impossible without a good network, a good family, and very good studies. But you can still dream if you want.
 

Blackmail!

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The problem with those places is not fundementally that they are poor as poor is to some extent a relative term. In fact the poor around the world own trillions of dollars in assets. The problem is they live in countries with poor legal systems and corrupt governments so those assets are locked up and they are not able to make the best use of a market system. Thus only the rich in those countries and multinationals have the means to access the government so that they profit off of the property they own.

It's not that simple unfortunately.

Basically, even with the best legal system, when you're born poor, chances are you will stay poor your entire life.
There are lots of other factors involved, and most of them aren't that "local": We live in a global system. The way rich countries interact with poor countries also matters a lot.
 
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