Black people in Spiderman 2

[Epiphany]

You're all forgetting Meteor Man. Loved this movie as a kid! Though in retrospect, it was a terrible movie. I was a naive child. Perhaps, it should be re-made with a better script. His costume was cool.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Purists are annoying. If it wasn't Electro, whoever he is, being Black, they would complain about something else, like the webs on the Spiderman costume being in the wrong place or something.

I get that when you like a story, you get attached to the medium you first experienced in, but demanding 100% fidelity to that medium is ridiculous.

While I understand the desire for accuracy, the purists can be ridiculous. Some people are still having an aneurysm over Man of Steel because Henry Cavill doesn't have the curl of hair in the middle of his forehead and doesn't wear his underpants on the outside.

My favorite one is people complaining about how the Klingons in Star Trek Into Darkness don't like like Original Series Klingons.

Because that totally wasn't something they only did because of the budget they had at the time, and a movie with 100 times that budget should stick to that.

Also I just got through some mad stuff on Cracked.com about eighties movies, Rocky and Rambo, essentially being propaganda for white Americans down about vietnam, Muhammed Ali and black athletes, and a counter blast about how eighties sports movies made it right to hate on hard work and accomplishment through talent.

No, we value meritocracy and personal responsibility in the U.S.. Don't be ridiculous. A politician told me that and everything.

Also, Donald Glover should have been Spiderman. Of course, the purists would have really flipped their lids then.

 

[The Ü™]

As long as they stay away from playing James Bond (in the official EON cannon), black actors can do whatever the fuck they want. It's bad enough that they strayed from the tall and swarthy Celtic archetype.

And I kinda figured black people would be the ones offended...by someone of their race playing a villain. Remember when Michael Clarke Duncan played the Kingpin in Daredevil? Oh yes, there was a Daredevil movie! And it starred Ben Affleck! That's right, Ben Affleck was an actor before he became a director!

As for this new Spider-Man 2, I'm sure it will be every bit a waste of time as The Amazing Spider-Man. Why did they have to reboot the franchise? Remember when they continued the same movie timelines with different actors?

 

[Bamboo]

If they say, got a Hispanic actor and then added some Spanish lines to the character's repertoire, that would be a change - he'd be someone else. If he's black but acts the part of the character without somehow "making him a black guy" (in mannerism or alteration of content, other characters alluding to it etc), whatever.

If they rewrote the comic as a guy with a different background or behavior, I mean, it's a comic book movie, I don't really care, but that'd be odd in a way. It wouldn't be the same thing. I suppose they rewrite foreign films with local actors though...

To clarify, I don't just mean they changed the race of the actor, but they changed the character to fit the stereotypes of what that race (or really any other grouping) is, then it'd be a different character. Which might work, or might not, but it wouldn't really be the same.

But in the case of Gatsby, for instance (which I didn't see, but I recall the book), merely another race (with the same character) would be odd and disconcerting and would take away from the movie because of the setting.

But some genre's get away with intentional alteration of time, place, and character. Anything based on Shakespeare, for instance.

 

[Totenkindly]

But some genre's get away with intentional alteration of time, place, and character. Anything based on Shakespeare, for instance.

I had a great time when I saw Othello live with Patrick Stewart playing the title role and the rest of the cast was black.

 

[prplchknz]

Yeah, I never read the comics, so i'd be none the wiser, but i really don't see the big deal with it. The funny thing about the hunger games in the book the character they made the fuss about was black in the book. People just can't read, neither can I

 

[Risen]

Yeah, I never read the comics, so i'd be none the wiser, but i really don't see the big deal with it. The funny thing about the hunger games in the book the character they made the fuss about was black in the book. People just can't read, neither can I

People just don't think outside their own race. Except when you're a minority, and you generally assume most characters are white unless stated otherwise.

 

[Southern Kross]

People just don't think outside their own race. Except when you're a minority, and you generally assume most characters are white unless stated otherwise.

Exactly.

In The Hunger Games the author didn't go out of her way to explicitly emphasise the race of Rue. Her physically description was that she had dark skin, but that line could easily have been missed. The thing is, the character was meant to symbolise innocence, purity and sweetness, the sort of role that is typically taken by a blond-haired, blue-eyed, white girl, and that was the image many people created in their head. Then when the role was cast, people refused to accept that Rue could be anything other than white, because it would completely undermine the racist archetypes that are ingrained in their heads. I think some even pointed out to them the line which indicates she's black, and still they wouldn't accept the truth. People won't even admit that those archetypes are ingrained (or that they are inherently racist), but they react so extremely when those roles are threatened. Black people are fine, as long as they stay in their place. And that place is usually in the margins, where they won't get in the way of the real story (about white people).

 

[Risen]

Exactly.

In The Hunger Games the author didn't go out of her way to explicitly emphasise the race of Rue. Her physically description was that she had dark skin, but that line could easily have been missed. The thing is, the character was meant to symbolise innocence, purity and sweetness, the sort of role that is typically taken by a blond-haired, blue-eyed, white girl, and that was the image many people created in their head. Then when the role was cast, people refused to accept that Rue could be anything other than white, because it would completely undermine the racist archetypes that are ingrained in their heads. I think some even pointed out to them the line which indicates she's black, and still they wouldn't accept the truth. People won't even admit that those archetypes are ingrained (or that they are inherently racist), but they react so extremely when those roles are threatened. Black people are fine, as long as they stay in their place. And that place is usually in the margins, where they won't get in the way of the real story (about white people).

What's just funny, and twisted, is that you (and I) don't even get the luxury of just imagining such characters as being of our own ethnicity/race, if you live in this country. Everything is portrayed in such a one sided manner that you simply stop thinking of the stories from your own racial perspective. It's even more obvious when you go to other countries and see how they react to American media, and the stereotypes they build about America based on it. It's been getting a lot better in recent years though.

 

[Bamboo]

People are disturbed by the unfamiliar. I don't doubt at all there is true hateful racial sentiment* (plenty examples of that), but in my experience with white people who don't have exposure to minorities (most people in Vermont, for instance, ~97% white, not to mention specificially Christian western euro descendants so a generally narrow grouping), [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]'s description of blue eyed blonde girl being innocence personified rings true, overwhelmingly it's just what they are familiar with. So even if they aren't especially racist in the sense of disliking minorities (in practice they act cordial enough when they meet *and* in private attitudes), they still have very narrow expectations of what that means. It's still racism, but I see those groups differently. The thing is, hateful racists are the ones who are going to announce their stuff to the world while the ingrained/unfamiliar variety are just going to be quietly surprised and confused.

That probably doesn't mean anything in terms of how you see yourself or relate to a character at all, which I can see is an issue all its own, but I figured it was worth pointing out. The loud jerkoffs and the ingrained have similar base beliefs, but they are different in mentality, and their representation online seems heavily skewed toward the former.

*The thing about the hateful racists when I meet them (this happens occasionally, including just last week) is that they seem to assume that it's a universal sentiment, by their nature. Universal, of course, meaning they see I'm a 'fellow white guy.' And figure because I'm a city person I must be acutely aware of how evil those dark people are, seeing them up close and all. "You're from DC?! There sure are a lot of black people up there!...I'd hate living in the city!" (this was seriously the first thing they said after they asked where I was from after maybe 1 minute of conversation) as if they're really expecting me to reply "Yeah it feels great to be away from that dark menace and with some real americans, high five." Genuine surprise I'm not hopping on that train with them.

What's just funny, and twisted, is that you (and I) don't even get the luxury of just imagining such characters as being of our own ethnicity/race, if you live in this country. Everything is portrayed in such a one sided manner that you simply stop thinking of the stories from your own racial perspective. It's even more obvious when you go to other countries and see how they react to American media, and the stereotypes they build about America based on it. It's been getting a lot better in recent years though.

Can you elaborate on the perceptions in other countries?

 

[Southern Kross]

What's just funny, and twisted, is that you (and I) don't even get the luxury of just imagining such characters as being of our own ethnicity/race, if you live in this country. Everything is portrayed in such a one sided manner that you simply stop thinking of the stories from your own racial perspective. It's even more obvious when you go to other countries and see how they react to American media, and the stereotypes they build about America based on it. It's been getting a lot better in recent years though.

People are disturbed by the unfamiliar. I don't doubt at all there is true hateful racial sentiment* (plenty examples of that), but in my experience with white people who don't have exposure to minorities (most people in Vermont, for instance, ~97% white, not to mention specificially Christian western euro descendants so a generally narrow grouping), Southern Kross's description of blue eyed blonde girl being innocence personified rings true, overwhelmingly it's just what they are familiar with. So even if they aren't especially racist in the sense of disliking minorities (in practice they act cordial enough when they meet *and* in private attitudes), they still have very narrow expectations of what that means. It's still racism, but I see those groups differently. The thing is, hateful racists are the ones who are going to announce their stuff to the world while the ingrained/unfamiliar variety are just going to be quietly surprised and confused.

That probably doesn't mean anything in terms of how you see yourself or relate to a character at all, which I can see is an issue all its own, but I figured it was worth pointing out. The loud jerkoffs and the ingrained have similar base beliefs, but they are different in mentality, and their representation online seems heavily skewed toward the former.

All this is precisely why diverse media representation makes such a huge difference. Movies and TV make a huge difference in how we perceive other races (or minorities in general). If we see minorities in a variety of situations, everyday struggles, different characterisations etc they no longer appear 'other' and strange; they're just an ordinary human beings going about their business. You look at Grey's Anatomy for example, I believe they have a policy where they cast most roles (both recurring and bit parts) irrespective of race - the best person for the job gets it. And because there are so many minorities (more than one token black person, even!) you stop looking at characters based on race and just see them as the same, and feel equal amounts of empathy (ie. identification) for all the characters. This sort of approach can have such a positive affect on society, to slowly break down in-built bias, stereotypes and barriers to empathy.

*The thing about the hateful racists when I meet them (this happens occasionally, including just last week) is that they seem to assume that it's a universal sentiment, by their nature. Universal, of course, meaning they see I'm a 'fellow white guy.' And figure because I'm a city person I must be acutely aware of how evil those dark people are, seeing them up close and all. "You're from DC?! There sure are a lot of black people up there!...I'd hate living in the city!" (this was seriously the first thing they said after they asked where I was from after maybe 1 minute of conversation) as if they're really expecting me to reply "Yeah it feels great to be away from that dark menace and with some real americans, high five." Genuine surprise I'm not hopping on that train with them.

Can you elaborate on the perceptions in other countries?

I'm from New Zealand and I have some family friends that did some travelling in the US. They're a couple in their 40s, one white and one is mixed race (part white, part Maori - native New Zealander). They were staying with some white, American friends (they were distantly related or something - but they were American born anyway), I think it was in Philadelphia. They were just having a look around the city by themselves and came back from a nice day out and told their friends about it. Their friends flipped their lid when they found they had gone to a "bad neighbourhood" (apparently code for "where black people live") - and they were then lectured about how dangerous it was. The couple couldn't understand it because they had met so many friendly people and hadn't found it tense or scary at all. Another time, the couple took a bus somewhere with the people they were staying with. The bus was semi-full and so the couple just took the first seats available. The guy sat next to a black woman and struck up a friendly conversation. They talked about his accent, where he's from, whether they were enjoying themselves in the US, what places they'd seen etc etc. When the couple got off at their stop, their American friends immediately flipped out and said how he wasn't being careful, and how he shouldn't talk to "those people".

Now NZ certainly isn't free of racism, but my friends were shocked at how casual and blatant it was in America. They couldn't believe that whites seemed to not even see blacks as people, or if they did, they saw them only as threatening. I know plenty of enlightened Americans, so I don't see this as representative of ALL Americans, but it does make you wonder about what the general level of prejudice is.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

All this is precisely why diverse media representation makes such a huge difference. Movies and TV make a huge difference in how we perceive other races (or minorities in general). If we see minorities in a variety of situations, everyday struggles, different characterisations etc they no longer appear 'other' and strange; they're just an ordinary human beings going about their business. You look at Grey's Anatomy for example, I believe they have a policy where they cast most roles (both recurring and bit parts) irrespective of race - the best person for the job gets it. And because there are so many minorities (more than one token black person, even!) you stop looking at characters based on race and just see them as the same, and feel equal amounts of empathy (ie. identification) for all the characters. This sort of approach can have such a positive affect on society, to slowly break down in-built bias, stereotypes and barriers to empathy.


I'm from New Zealand and I have some family friends that did some travelling in the US. They're a couple in their 40s, one white and one is mixed race (part white, part Maori - native New Zealander). They were staying with some white, American friends (they were distantly related or something - but they were American born anyway), I think it was in Philadelphia. They were just having a look around the city by themselves and came back from a nice day out and told their friends about it. Their friends flipped their lid when they found they had gone to a "bad neighbourhood" (apparently code for "where black people live") - and they were then lectured about how dangerous it was. The couple couldn't understand it because they had met so many friendly people and hadn't found it tense or scary at all. Another time, the couple took a bus somewhere with the people they were staying with. The bus was semi-full and so the couple just took the first seats available. The guy sat next to a black woman and struck up a friendly conversation. They talked about his accent, where he's from, whether they were enjoying themselves in the US, what places they'd seen etc etc. When the couple got off at their stop, their American friends immediately flipped out and said how he wasn't being careful, and how he shouldn't talk to "those people".

.

It definitely exists, and I'm not offended that you pointed it out. I'm sure people consider the neighborhood I live in a "bad neighborhood" because it has a large black population, even though there's very little crime, and it's even pretty middle class. Hell, I've had people freak out and insist on locking the car doors when just driving through "bad neighborhoods." I'm not saying crime is something to sneeze at, but I've never heard of people committing robbery by attacking cars parked at spotlight. It's definitely not a common occurrence.

 

[kyuuei]

I'd rather have an actor portray the character the right way than to look precisely like them.

In something like Game of Thrones, race does play a part, because it does in the book. A minor part--but if you had black people playing characters in King's Landing, it might confuse you since they usually come from the Summer Isles. Not a huge deal at all.

In a situation like this. Who cares? If Jaime Fox does a better job than some white dude, I say it's fine. It's the acting I want to see.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'd rather have an actor portray the character the right way than to look precisely like them.

In something like Game of Thrones, race does play a part, because it does in the book. A minor part--but if you had black people playing characters in King's Landing, it might confuse you since they usually come from the Summer Isles. Not a huge deal at all.

So what do you think of the casting of the Red Viper? (I take it you've read the books?) A Chilean who looks Chilean is good enough for me.

He's swarthy enough for me. In my head, he looked something like this:

Pretty close.

I want to see some Sand Snakes!

 

[kyuuei]

So what do you think of the casting of the Red Viper? A Chilean who looks Chilean is good enough for me.



He's swarthy enough for me. In my head, he looked something like this:

[img]

Pretty close.

I want to see some Sand Snakes![/QUOTE]

:rofl1: I swear, I had the SAME image in my head. I'm excited to see Sand Snakes too :) They have such an awesome part in the book, it'll be great to see them come to life.

Like I said, it's really just not a big deal overall. If they had casted Jon Snow as a black guy, but he acted well enough, I don't think there's anything to be upset about. It's a little confusing, because Jon clearly isn't a summer islander, but people will get over it and just know.

 

[Epiphany]

What's just funny, and twisted, is that you (and I) don't even get the luxury of just imagining such characters as being of our own ethnicity/race, if you live in this country. Everything is portrayed in such a one sided manner that you simply stop thinking of the stories from your own racial perspective.

I'm not disagreeing with this. Caucasians have been the majority in the US for a long time and I can understand the frustration that minorities face of not having many fictional characters of the same race. People instinctively look to those who are similar to relate to. But I'm certain that if a black character was changed to a white character, there would be a backlash from that, as well. I'm not convinced that racism is at the root of people wanting consistency in the characters of stories they love, whatever those characteristics may be.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

As a black man living in America, I am deeply affected by this (not really).

More importantly--as a Spider-Man fan--Electro was always lame.
Black, white--dont matter. DOA.

What about Paul Giamatti as The Rhino? You wanna talk about comic strip blasphemy: He doesnt even wear a Rhino suit for fucks sake.

 

[Totenkindly]

What about Paul Giamatti as The Rhino? You wanna talk about comic strip blasphemy: He doesnt even wear a Rhino suit for fucks sake.

Occasionally such casting can work -- Phillip Seymour Hoffman was enough of a badass in MI3 to make a guy's balls crawl back into his abdomen, if they didn't just fall off first in shock -- but I have a hard time believing Giamatti can pull this off. I don't think he's got the physical presence or edge for it.

At least Jamie Foxx has some edge. Did a good turn as a black slaver in Django.

Also, Donald Glover should have been Spiderman. Of course, the purists would have really flipped their lids then.

I wish Eartha Kitt hadn't kicked the bucket in 2008 -- CATWOMAN LIVES!!!!

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I wish Eartha Kitt hadn't kicked the bucket in 2008 -- CATWOMAN LIVES!!!!

Halle Berry is still around, so it might still happen.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

Occasionally such casting can work -- Phillip Seymour Hoffman was enough of a badass in MI3 to make a guy's balls crawl back into his abdomen, if they didn't just fall off first in shock -- but I have a hard time believing Giamatti can pull this off. I don't think he's got the physical presence or edge for it.

At least Jamie Foxx has some edge.

Hoffman was the only exceptional thing about that movie and I am pretty sure that Giamatti will be....interesting. But he drives a dump truck instead of wearing a rhino costume. Lame.

As for Foxx: Who knows? He is a very good actor, but a "black" Electro is the least of this series problems. The people howling at the "inconsistency" of the character are intolerable doodoo heads afaic.