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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, I felt like a lot of their "bang for the buck" went into the war at Zion with their stupid "cool" human/robot gunner things.
    Trinity stated in the first movie that their only ("ONLY") defense against the squiddies was the EMP.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The fact that Neo can bleed, thus he is still human, gave more confidence to the Merovingian's baddies.
    That has nothing to do with what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Trinity stated in the first movie that their only ("ONLY") defense against the squiddies was the EMP.
    I'm not sure what you are saying -- that this is an inconsistency in the third movie, since although they used an EMP to take out the squids, the gunners were basically a waste of time and they shouldn't have bothered

    Is the bushmaster someone important? This looks like some guy's post on a web forum somewhere, no more important than the posts here... although it would be nice if someone quoted me on another board and said, "Well, JENNIFER liked the Matrix Reloaded, so....!!"

    I disagree with him about the Merovingian. I think he's taking a few off-the-cuff phrases as some kind of fact. The comments he quoted all are pretty general. Also, I did not think the One survived the process; they would take the code he carried and use it to jumpstart Zion. He was always the anomaly that broke down the system, so this would mean the One probably gets "wiped" just as Neo wipes at the end of this trilogy. His rebel code would be used to seed the anomaly in the next Matrix version.

    From my understanding, The Merovingian was some kind of control program -- he was supposed to regulate behavior in people who didn't break out of the system. And this is what he does now -- he's kind of an "overseer" program that commands other software. He's likely from a version of the matrix before free will was introduced. He is essentially an exile who did not leave the system when his purpose was over, and now he harbors OTHER Exiles (including some of his henchmen) who no longer have a purpose.

    Note his worldview -- there is no such thing as choice, everything is cause->effect. That's how he was programmed. that's how he sees the world.

    Also note that there was no real need for a "One" until free will was introduced -- the One is the coalescence of the chaos in the system instigated by free will. Before free will, the One would not exist.

    I would just like to know where Persephone came from, and where she spends the other six months of the year.

    EDIT:

    Here is the backstory that was explained in The Matrix Online.

    The Merovingian is a strong proponent that causality is the true nature of existence within the Matrix, not choice. As a result, his ideology directly conflicts with the efforts of the Oracle. In fact, the Merovingian's behavior strongly suggests that he despised the Oracle so much as to want her termination, suggesting that Trinity can bring him the "eyes of the Oracle" as ransom for Neo's release from Mobil Avenue. He has been known to momentarily abandon his hatred if it means his survival, as evidenced by the fact that when he decided to just give the Zion operatives Neo even without the eyes of the Oracle after he and his men were held by gunpoint by Trinity.

    A connection to the Merovingian to the second failed Matrix may exist. The Merovingian surrounded himself with henchmen with remarkable abilities that other programs do not show. The Oracle, Persephone, and the Architect alluded to these programs in various conversations involving Neo. These programs inhabited the ill-fated second Matrix in an effort by the Architect to establish a primitive level of choice through frightening the human populace. When the second Matrix failed, the Merovingian kept many of these old programs for his own devices.

    It has been confirmed that the Merovingian's prior purpose to exile was the Operating System (like Microsoft Windows or Mac OS X) for an earlier version of the Matrix, the second of the two Matrix betas. Thus the Merovingian's original role was a leadership position, coordinating activity and information in the Matrix beta. He would later make good use of these skills in exile as a power broker and trafficker of information. It also explains why the Merovingian is so skilled at rewriting Matrix code to create new custom objects.[1]

    Persephone has said that the Merovingian used to be "like Neo" when she spoke of initially falling in love with him. As the Merovingian's power lies more in subtle rather than gross manipulation of information, he may not be a previous One. Most assume Persephone is saying that the Merovingian was not always a cynical hedonist, but was once driven and purposeful.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That has nothing to do with what I said.
    I have no idea what you meant by it, so it was a shot in the dark. The blood I pointed out was only relevant as a symbol of Neo's humanness, not to Neo's character arc or to the plot. But like I said, I don't know what you were saying there.

    Didn't the Merovingian state that the blood proves Neo is still human? And didn't this statement immediately give more confidence to the baddies? When Neo bleeds, it signifies something important about Neo; in Kill Bill, blood has no meaning, it only serves to make the movie more graphic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure what you are saying -- that this is an inconsistency in the third movie, since although they used an EMP to take out the squids, the gunners were basically a waste of time and they shouldn't have bothered
    All I'm saying is that it's an inconsistency, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Is the bushmaster someone important? This looks like some guy's post on a web forum somewhere, no more important than the posts here... although it would be nice if someone quoted me on another board and said, "Well, JENNIFER liked the Matrix Reloaded, so....!!"
    Since the message was on topic, I decided to add its reasoning to the list of reasons why Matrix: Reloaded was not a lesser movie than the Matrix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I disagree with him about the Merovingian. I think he's taking a few off-the-cuff phrases as some kind of fact. The comments he quoted all are pretty general. Also, I did not think the One survived the process; they would take the code he carried and use it to jumpstart Zion. He was always the anomaly that broke down the system, so this would mean the One probably gets "wiped" just as Neo wipes at the end of this trilogy. His rebel code would be used to seed the anomaly in the next Matrix version.
    Mr. Bushmaster stated that he was speculating at that later part of his post. I also disagree with his speculative musings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    From my understanding, The Merovingian was some kind of control program -- he was supposed to regulate behavior in people who didn't break out of the system. And this is what he does now -- he's kind of an "overseer" program that commands other software. He's likely from a version of the matrix before free will was introduced. He is essentially an exile who did not leave the system when his purpose was over, and now he harbors OTHER Exiles (including some of his henchmen) who no longer have a purpose.

    Note his worldview -- there is no such thing as choice, everything is cause->effect. That's how he was programmed. that's how he sees the world.

    Also note that there was no real need for a "One" until free will was introduced -- the One is the coalescence of the chaos in the system instigated by free will. Before free will, the One would not exist.

    I would just like to know where Persephone came from, and where she spends the other six months of the year.

    EDIT:

    Here is the backstory that was explained in The Matrix Online.

    The Merovingian is a strong proponent that causality is the true nature of existence within the Matrix, not choice. As a result, his ideology directly conflicts with the efforts of the Oracle. In fact, the Merovingian's behavior strongly suggests that he despised the Oracle so much as to want her termination, suggesting that Trinity can bring him the "eyes of the Oracle" as ransom for Neo's release from Mobil Avenue. He has been known to momentarily abandon his hatred if it means his survival, as evidenced by the fact that when he decided to just give the Zion operatives Neo even without the eyes of the Oracle after he and his men were held by gunpoint by Trinity.

    A connection to the Merovingian to the second failed Matrix may exist. The Merovingian surrounded himself with henchmen with remarkable abilities that other programs do not show. The Oracle, Persephone, and the Architect alluded to these programs in various conversations involving Neo. These programs inhabited the ill-fated second Matrix in an effort by the Architect to establish a primitive level of choice through frightening the human populace. When the second Matrix failed, the Merovingian kept many of these old programs for his own devices.

    It has been confirmed that the Merovingian's prior purpose to exile was the Operating System (like Microsoft Windows or Mac OS X) for an earlier version of the Matrix, the second of the two Matrix betas. Thus the Merovingian's original role was a leadership position, coordinating activity and information in the Matrix beta. He would later make good use of these skills in exile as a power broker and trafficker of information. It also explains why the Merovingian is so skilled at rewriting Matrix code to create new custom objects.[1]

    Persephone has said that the Merovingian used to be "like Neo" when she spoke of initially falling in love with him. As the Merovingian's power lies more in subtle rather than gross manipulation of information, he may not be a previous One. Most assume Persephone is saying that the Merovingian was not always a cynical hedonist, but was once driven and purposeful.
    I appreciate this good information.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I have no idea what you meant by it, so it was a shot in the dark. The blood I pointed out was only relevant as a symbol of Neo's humanness, not to Neo's character arc or to the plot. But like I said, I don't know what you were saying there.

    Didn't the Merovingian state that the blood proves Neo is still human? And didn't this statement immediately give more confidence to the baddies? When Neo bleeds, it signifies something important about Neo; in Kill Bill, blood has no meaning, it only serves to make the movie more graphic.
    it sounds like you didn't read my earlier post.

    Reloaded uses blood in a specific symbol regarding Neo in that scene.
    Kill Bill uses blood thematically to make a broad conclusion about revenge, that will likely be part of the payoff for KB3 if there is one. It wasn't done "just to make it more graphic" ... although I think that Tarantino enjoyed splashing blood about as much as a young boy enjoys stomping through mud.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    it sounds like you didn't read my earlier post.

    Reloaded uses blood in a specific symbol regarding Neo in that scene.
    Kill Bill uses blood thematically to make a broad conclusion about revenge, that will likely be part of the payoff for KB3 if there is one. It wasn't done "just to make it more graphic" ... although I think that Tarantino enjoyed splashing blood about as much as a young boy enjoys stomping through mud.
    What is Tarantino's broad conclusion about revenge? To be seen in KB3 which may never happen? Considering what I've witnessed in other movies of his, blood is just blood - and sometimes it includes brains.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    What is Tarantino's broad conclusion about revenge? To be seen in KB3 which may never happen? Considering what I've witnessed in other movies of his, blood is just blood - and sometimes it includes brains.
    Whatever. This has become the battle of pointless minutia.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Whatever. This has become the battle of pointless minutia.
    It wasn't pointless a few minutes ago. What is thematic blood?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    It's a trilogy. The second movie in trilogies can never really be judged on their own. You just can't justify that.

    I like the explanation in revolutions. It could not have pulled it off without reloaded being as it was.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It seems to be the consensus all over the internet that The Matrix is better than Matrix: Reloaded. But I haven't seen any really good reason why. The Matrix has the advantage of being first, thus it is unique and original. Hell, it was mind-blowing. The Matrix: Reloaded - been there, done that.

    But Matrix: Reloaded contained some interesting concepts, not just the Agent Smith "virus" either. It tells us that good requires evil, and vice versa.
    Too much obvious CGI, not as entertaining as the original, poor exposition, erratic pacing, confusing/ambiguous storyline, etc.

    It also threw the standard hero's journey archetype out the window.
    (This is the reason I enjoyed Reloaded, however)

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