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  1. #21
    window shopper Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Pretty much. I see hard rock as being raw, unsophisticated, and rough around the edges -- all qualities that I see as being MUCH more appealing to Americans (esp. rural white Americans) than to Belgians.
    Intersting, I've never looked at it that way. Theres also the fact that Belgium has two main languages: Dutch and French. The Dutch have little in the way of musical literature from what I know; and French rock has a very limited tradition behind it. The French language(which is the main language here is Brussels) has only two signifact rock bands that come mind; Indochine, and Noir Desir(and these bands are known only in the French speaking world). End of story. Rap and Chanson Francaise(French song) have an intersting history, rock in the French speaking world does not. In the Dutch speaking world, theyre much more open to English and when I traveled to Flanders, I saw a tons of goth and alternative types there on the street, so maybe its not all of Belgium, but just Brussels.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Pretty much. I see hard rock as being raw, unsophisticated, and rough around the edges -- all qualities that I see as being MUCH more appealing to Americans (esp. rural white Americans) than to Belgians.
    The worst of hard rock is all of those things in a bad way, and the best of it incorporates some or all of those qualities in a good way. Like anything else, if there is quality to a work, then the more you look the more you see. To someone giving it a cursory glance, Jackson Pollock's work looks raw, unsophisticated, and rough around the edges.

    I love hard rock, and I'm a northeastern city kid with black nerd glasses. I think it's important not to conflate an artist's music with the stereotypes of its audience. For instance, I really like Ryan Adams and Rilo Kiley, but I would nevereverevernever want to be identified as a twee hipster, the predominant stereotype of their fan bases.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #23
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    it's not dead but it's definitely dying and a lot of people who used to listen to only rock music are abandoning it for other genres. i just think it's kinda played out, pretty much everything original has already been done and the shock value aspect of it is gone too.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    The worst of hard rock is all of those things in a bad way, and the best of it incorporates some or all of those qualities in a good way. Like anything else, if there is quality to a work, then the more you look the more you see. To someone giving it a cursory glance, Jackson Pollock's work looks raw, unsophisticated, and rough around the edges.

    I love hard rock, and I'm a northeastern city kid with black nerd glasses. I think it's important not to conflate an artist's music with the stereotypes of its audience. For instance, I really like Ryan Adams and Rilo Kiley, but I would nevereverevernever want to be identified as a twee hipster, the predominant stereotype of their fan bases.
    @EJCC



    just to touch on this topic I always see a difference between Rock and Roll and RAWK!

    Rock and Roll it a beautiful american sound that incorporates the blues with folk and some gospel, country and maybe a little jazz. Very sort of raw, earthy and "free" in a way that is very american.

    RAWK on the other hand is sort of like all the aggression and crudeness of Rockn' roll with none of the innovative, poetic, soulful parts.

    It's like really fancy cheese versus string cheese. Like thanksgiving versus a microwave turkey meal.

    CHUCK BERRY VERSUS BUCKCHERRY.

  5. #25
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ @Pseudo, what you're talking about isn't a genre distinction, as far as I can tell; you're just talking about crappy rock vs. good rock? Because not all hard rock is crappy.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ^ @Pseudo, what you're talking about isn't a genre distinction, as far as I can tell; you're just talking about crappy rock vs. good rock? Because not all hard rock is crappy.
    I think @Pseudo is making a genre distinction, and dismissing an entire genre. It's fine if that sort of thing is not to one's taste, but to dismiss it out of hand is presumptive. I don't like some kinds of music, but that doesn't mean they're inherently inferior. When I don't like a genre (say, EDM), what that says to me is that I want something different out of music than someone who enjoys EDM wants out of music. If I don't like salty snacks, I won't like potato chips, but that doesn't mean potato chips are terrible.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ^ @Pseudo, what you're talking about isn't a genre distinction, as far as I can tell; you're just talking about crappy rock vs. good rock? Because not all hard rock is crappy.

    I like hard rock, specifically hardcore. I think there are pockets of really terrible hard rock and that's what's mostly on playing on the radio right now.


    I guess what i was trying to was

    1.) I don't see how rednecks=rock

    2.) Even though rock music is more raw I think it has it's own type of sophistication, which is a result of combined american traditions.


    Maybe this all has to do with a difference in how we use the term redneck? Where I'm from there is are people who are "country" and people whoa are "rednecks". People who are ruuulllll country are just rural people who are really into rural stuff. Rednecks are more like the rural equivalent of ghetto. Generally, really aggressive, macho, sexist, bigoted ect. And that exit other places too, I don't think there is a name for them but generally their radio stations are all male DJs with women moaning the song titles, they have a lot of hooters promotion and everything revolves around being bad ass.


    I guess it depend what music we're talking about.

    Bad brains, Minor threat, black flag

    Nirvana, Hole, Mudhoney

    Pantera, Slayer, Iron maiden

    Korn, slipknot, marylin manson.



    It's a perspective thing I think. I think Iggy Pop is a lock more Rock and Roll than Korn, but I think he'd be a lot less accepted by what I think of as Rednecks.


    i think I'm expressing myself really badly.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I think @Pseudo is making a genre distinction, and dismissing an entire genre. It's fine if that sort of thing is not to one's taste, but to dismiss it out of hand is presumptive. I don't like some kinds of music, but that doesn't mean they're inherently inferior. When I don't like a genre (say, EDM), what that says to me is that I want something different out of music than someone who enjoys EDM wants out of music. If I don't like salty snacks, I won't like potato chips, but that doesn't mean potato chips are terrible.

    I'm not trying to dismiss whole genres. I just think that not everything out there is worthwhile and some of it really exploits a few basic things. And generally that's sex appeal and power. I'm not saying it's not enjoyable, I'm saying that the song "Crazy Bitch" might not have as much nuance and sophistication as say David Bowie's "Starman". But I'm totally open to argument.


    Tap out by birdamn vs Brooklyn Zoo by ODB. I think you could make a clear case that ODB is doing more in terms of creatively manipulating lyrics and the way he delivers them, And I think that make his music richer and therefore better.



    I'm open to different music but I don't think that means all music is "good".

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I'm not trying to dismiss whole genres. I just think that not everything out there is worthwhile and some of it really exploits a few basic things. And generally that's sex appeal and power. I'm not saying it's not enjoyable, I'm saying that the song "Crazy Bitch" might not have as much nuance and sophistication as say David Bowie's "Starman". But I'm totally open to argument.


    Tap out by birdamn vs Brooklyn Zoo by ODB. I think you could make a clear case that ODB is doing more in terms of creatively manipulating lyrics and the way he delivers them, And I think that make his music richer and therefore better.



    I'm open to different music but I don't think that means all music is "good".
    I wouldn't argue that all music is good...there's lots of crappy music, and lots of crappy hard rock music. I'm just saying that something can be good while still not being to an individual's taste. I can't stand Radiohead, but I wouldn't try to argue that they suck. I think what I take issue with is your assertion that nuance and sophistication (when compared to broadness) are themselves indicators of quality.

    I'm a big David Bowie fan, but I don't particularly like "Starman", and I love "Crazy Bitch" (even if I have to pretend the lyrics don't exist). I wouldn't argue that "Crazy Bitch" is as thoughtful or nuanced, but it's not trying to be. You can make a vivid painting with a broad brush that's just as impactful and enjoyable as a painting that's more painstakingly detailed. They're different animals.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  10. #30
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I wouldn't argue that all music is good...there's lots of crappy music, and lots of crappy hard rock music. I'm just saying that something can be good while still not being to an individual's taste. I can't stand Radiohead, but I wouldn't try to argue that they suck. I think what I take issue with is your assertion that nuance and sophistication (when compared to broadness) are themselves indicators of quality.

    I'm a big David Bowie fan, but I don't particularly like "Starman", and I love "Crazy Bitch" (even if I have to pretend the lyrics don't exist). I wouldn't argue that "Crazy Bitch" is as thoughtful or nuanced, but it's not trying to be. You can make a vivid painting with a broad brush that's just as impactful and enjoyable as a painting that's more painstakingly detailed. They're different animals.

    I understand your point. The stooges and a syphony orchestra aren't tryin to do the same thing. However in my opinion, just like art, there's a difference between intentionally making something simple and just poorly making something.

    Jut musing I think great music is probably some combination of technical skill, emotional communication and innovation creativity. And an lack of one of those could be made up by an over abundance of one of the others. But if you have something that isn't technically great, is a rehash of something else and stay on a very shallow level emotionally,.... It just seems kind of cheap (bad) to me. And thr kind o music is really easy to make.

    I guess I don't know why we're arguing because I never singled out a certain genre as wholly bad.

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