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Stereotypes and memes and racism, oh my! [split thread]

Mal12345

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Actually, as someone who makes his living creating popular culture, I have a passing familiarity with both. And no, you don't only know it because you're from the South...you only think it because you're from the South. In other words, no, you are not the only one to possess this knowledge; but you're the only one in this thread to think about it in that way. That doesn't make other ways of thinking about it invalid.

I don't have a cigar and I wouldn't put a nasty cigarette in my mouth even as a test. So I put a pen in my mouth and said, "Welcome to Earth." It came out as "Welcome to Earf." Yes, I'm white.
 

Thalassa

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Actually, as someone who makes his living creating popular culture, I have a passing familiarity with both. And no, you don't only know it because you're from the South...you only think it because you're from the South. In other words, no, you are not the only one to possess this knowledge; but you're the only one in this thread to think about it in that way. That doesn't make other ways of thinking about it invalid.



No, you didn't make this up. Nobody ever said you were pulling it out of your ass. But you and your corroborating evidence can both be wrong.

No I don't think it because I'm from the South anymore than Will Smith automatically says Earf because he's African American.

This is the quite possibly the stupidest conversation I've ever had on this forum. I never called anyone a racist, I said the meme is racist, and it is.

It's making fun of a working class/poor African American dialect.

The amount of defensiveness both you and Mal are projecting (especially Mal) because I pointed out that THE MEME (not he) is racist, is actually a little bizarre.

The meme is racist. Lots of people agree.

Neither of us are wrong. What don't you get? If he didn't mean it that way, HE isn't being racist, but he is using a meme that is commonly perceived as racist, and for good reason.

I mean if you posted a picture of random English person and implied that they dropped their H and so forth, everyone understands that you're implying they are lower class British or cockney.

By the same token, posting a picture of an African American and using words like "Earf" or "mouf" ...almost everyone understands that you're implying that they're lower class or ghetto.

If you guys want to make this about a cigar, go right ahead; but I'm warning you about how it's socially perceived.

Get a grip.
 

Thalassa

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Go start your own thread on the topic, and keep as far away from mine as possible.

Why because I pointed out that a meme is commonly socially perceived as racist?

Every conversation I've ever had with you, you've become completely irrational and accused me of trolling.

I'll gladly never respond to anything you say ever again. You're impossible to reason with, and probably badly mistyped.
 

Mal12345

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No I don't think it because I'm from the South anymore than Will Smith automatically says Earf because he's African American.

This is the quite possibly the stupidest conversation I've ever had on this forum. I never called anyone a racist, I said the meme is racist, and it is.

It's making fun of a working class/poor African American dialect.

The amount of defensiveness both you and Mal are projecting (especially Mal) because I pointed out that THE MEME (not he) is racist, is actually a little bizarre.

The meme is racist. Lots of people agree.

Neither of us are wrong. What don't you get? If he didn't mean it that way, HE isn't being racist, but he is using a meme that is commonly perceived as racist.

Cite?
 

violet_crown

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I can't believe how oblivious you people are.

I didn't make this up.

Well clearly, Marmie, if the white men in the thread doesn't see it, then it must not exist. As we all know they're regular subjects of myriad oppressions, and don't have any kind of institutionalized privilege that might make them oblivious when it comes to what other groups might find derogatory. And if they were, I'm sure they'd have some nonwhite "friend" they could point to as evidence of their sensitivity, and a rational basis for their ability to tell you or anyone else what ought and ought not be offensive to them. You, Marmie--who grew up in a place where issues of race are not just an intellectual exercise, but a real and potent force that informs one's everyday experience--probably know fuck all about this subject compared to a white man. Fuck you and not to mention, your relevant, formal education on this subject. These things do not compare to the innate sense of knowing of the white man. I genuinely wish you'd stop interrupting the thread with your typical hysterics, or at least back it up with the kind of credible, impartial evidence that your betters can get behind.

Now that that's settled. I can't think of any movie that I used to like, but don't any longer. There are movies I enjoyed as a kid for whom I have a deeper appreciation now. Clueless is a great example. The whole central trope of how extremely vapid the girls in the movie were kind of went over my head growing up, so I find it a lot funnier now. In a similar vein, there are films that I thought were super deep, but now find kind of silly. The Craft is an example of that. Ditto for the film Waking Life. Still, I don't actively dislike these films for having more perspective on on them, or finding the revelations they once provided to be familiar. Things just get shrouded with nostalgia, so they're kind of exempt from the strict categories of like/dislike. I'm more likely to get won over by a film over time, then for it to totally lose whatever its appeal might have been.
 

Mal12345

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No I don't think it because I'm from the South anymore than Will Smith automatically says Earf because he's African American.

This is the quite possibly the stupidest conversation I've ever had on this forum. I never called anyone a racist, I said the meme is racist, and it is.

It's making fun of a working class/poor African American dialect.

The amount of defensiveness both you and Mal are projecting (especially Mal) because I pointed out that THE MEME (not he) is racist, is actually a little bizarre.

The meme is racist. Lots of people agree.

Neither of us are wrong. What don't you get? If he didn't mean it that way, HE isn't being racist, but he is using a meme that is commonly perceived as racist, and for good reason.

I mean if you posted a picture of random English person and implied that they dropped their H and so forth, everyone understands that you're implying they are lower class British or cockney.

By the same token, posting a picture of an African American and using words like "Earf" or "mouf" ...almost everyone understands that you're implying that they're lower class or ghetto.

If you guys want to make this about a cigar, go right ahead; but I'm warning you about how it's socially perceived.

Get a grip.

Why the sudden desperate need for a warning?
 

EJCC

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Well clearly, Marmie, if the white men in the thread doesn't see it, then it must not exist. As we all know they're regular subjects of myriad oppressions, and don't have any kind of institutionalized privilege that might make them oblivious when it comes to what other groups might find derogatory. And if they were, I'm sure they'd have some nonwhite "friend" they could point to as evidence of their sensitivity, and a rational basis for their ability to tell you or anyone else what ought and ought not be offensive to them. You, Marmie--who grew up in a place where issues of race are not just an intellectual exercise, but a real and potent force that informs one's everyday experience--probably know fuck all about this subject compared to a white man. Fuck you and not to mention, your relevant, formal education on this subject. These things do not compare to the innate sense of knowing of the white man. I genuinely wish you'd stop interrupting the thread with your typical hysterics, or at least back it up with the kind of credible, impartial evidence that your betters can get behind.
^ This. Oh my god, this.

The amount of white male privilege in this thread... :dont: I mean, it's fine to be ignorant of racist connotation, but to be that defensive about it when the idea is proposed to you?

Don't take it personal, folks, but you might want to open your minds a little so you can be better allies.
 

Thalassa

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Why the sudden desperate need for a warning?

Desperate? I commented because I was surprised you'd declare the meme hilarious when someone pointed out to you Will Smith never says that in the film.

I had no idea that your motive was simple ignorance; I would have stopped replying had you merely admitted your ignorance and lack of racist or classist intention instead of accusing me of being racist and trolling.

So then I explained in more detail facts about speech patterns and dialects and socio-cultural class perceptions, and why I'm sensitive to them because I went out of my way to actually learn to speak ASE, so I understand why someone would be offended if you insulted them by using a socio-cultural speech pattern.

This got warped into "guilt by association" because I am Southern, rather than the simple information that it is, that I've been exposed to this accent IRL, and I also empathize with people being judged unfairly because of speech patterns.

Speech patterns are a huge facet of how people judge your social class, intelligence, etc. If you've been white, middle class, male, and spoke American Standard English your entire life, yes, it's highly likely it's never occurred to you why this would be offensive to certain individuals.

I don't have to cite a reference, I already did, and you can find plenty more by hitting Google, Mal, I'm pretty sure your fingers aren't broken, seeing the rate you're churning out pointless, accusatory replies.
 

Thalassa

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Well clearly, Marmie, if the white men in the thread doesn't see it, then it must not exist. As we all know they're regular subjects of myriad oppressions, and don't have any kind of institutionalized privilege that might make them oblivious when it comes to what other groups might find derogatory. And if they were, I'm sure they'd have some nonwhite "friend" they could point to as evidence of their sensitivity, and a rational basis for their ability to tell you or anyone else what ought and ought not be offensive to them. You, Marmie--who grew up in a place where issues of race are not just an intellectual exercise, but a real and potent force that informs one's everyday experience--probably know fuck all about this subject compared to a white man. Fuck you and not to mention, your relevant, formal education on this subject. These things do not compare to the innate sense of knowing of the white man. I genuinely wish you'd stop interrupting the thread with your typical hysterics, or at least back it up with the kind of credible, impartial evidence that your betters can get behind.

Oh I know, right? :coffee:

Silly me.
 

Mal12345

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Desperate? I commented because I was surprised you'd declare the meme hilarious when someone pointed out to you Will Smith never says that in the film.

I had no idea that your motive was simple ignorance;

Ignorance cannot be classified as a motive. And if racism is so very relevant to the meme, then contact the proper forum authorities.

If you're just saying that the meme can be interpreted as racist, then you should have said so in the first place.
 

EJCC

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If you're just saying that the meme can be interpreted as racist, then you should have said so in the first place.
She's saying that people who understand that particular type of racist comment, will recognize that the meme, by alluding to it, is racist.

Santa and the Easter Bunny can be interpreted as imaginary, and that meme can be interpreted as racist. Because nothing is 100% certain, right?

... Oh, whatever. Keep your opinion if it makes you feel comfortable.
 
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This is the quite possibly the stupidest conversation I've ever had on this forum. I never called anyone a racist, I said the meme is racist, and it is.

That's quite a bar to set. I don't need to have the difference between Mal being racist and the meme being racist explained to me. I disagree with both.

The amount of defensiveness both you and Mal are projecting (especially Mal) because I pointed out that THE MEME (not he) is racist, is actually a little bizarre.

The meme is racist. Lots of people agree.

Disagreeing with you and not cowering is not the same as being defensive. I can also disagree with lots of people.


Well clearly, Marmie, if the white men in the thread doesn't see it, then it must not exist.

Oh, the hoary old "white man can't know, he WASN'T THERE" trope. Honestly, Rex, I like you and I agree with many of your posts, but this is intellectually dishonest at best and disingenuous at worst. Shame on you for saying that we aren't allowed to have a considered opinion on this topic, that we can't be thoughtful enough to know the landscape. That as much as anything is responsible for the sorry state of racial politics. Everyone has the right to define what is offensive to them, but that doesn't have any larger meaning. The gulf between what someone finds offensive and an actual offense can sometimes be as wide as the ocean.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now before I lose the ability to be civil.

Now that that's settled.

Not so much.
 

Thalassa

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Oh, the hoary old "white man can't know, he WASN'T THERE" trope. Honestly, Rex, I like you and I agree with many of your posts, but this is intellectually dishonest at best and disingenuous at worst. Shame on you for saying that we aren't allowed to have a considered opinion on this topic, that we can't be thoughtful enough to know the landscape. That as much as anything is responsible for the sorry state of racial politics. Everyone has the right to define what is offensive to them, but that doesn't have any larger meaning. The gulf between what someone finds offensive and an actual offense can sometimes be as wide as the ocean.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now before I lose the ability to be civil.



Not so much.

Its not intellectually dishonest or disingenuous. Nothing else could possibly explain you and Mal both completely side-stepping the socio-cultural implications of dialect in terms of race and/or class.

I mean neither of you are even willing to admit that, why yes, this certainly probably is interpreted this way by people who've actually met people who speak this way, or who are otherwise formally educated about dialect, and a lot more people than that; if it wasn't perceived to be such a common socio-cultural implication by people who aren't even educated about it, the meme would not be so popular in the first place (though you can dispute that) and Cracked.com wouldn't be so sure that their little half-joke about false perceptions of Will Smith saying that in the film would be well-understood by most literate people on the Internet that they'd grasp exactly why they said "He said Earth, you racist" without it having to be explained why.

The fact that I had to explain why makes it pretty clear that I am speaking with people who are either socio-culturally ignorant or insensitive, and wow, both of you happen to be white men.

It's easy to pretend race and class don't exist when its never concerned you in the slightest in your own life.
 

Mal12345

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Marm is not a troll; she's incredibly genuine, and I would never describe her as manipulative. She says what she means, 100% of the time. Which is more than I can say for a lot of forum members here.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for a genuine cite showing that the meme I posted is considered racist/classist by even just one other person on the internet, even though just that one can't substantiate Marm-troll's claim.
 

Thalassa

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I also understand that there are forums where they don't continually allow trolls like Troll-tini back in after a slap on the wrist ban.

Nice way to avoid discussing the actual topic at hand.

Carry on, Mal.

If anyone is trolling here, right now, I believe it's you.
 

Mal12345

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Its not intellectually dishonest or disingenuous. Nothing else could possibly explain you and Mal both completely side-stepping the socio-cultural implications of dialect in terms of race and/or class.

Side-stepping how? By pointing out the truth that you are a troll?
 

Mal12345

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Nice way to avoid discussing the actual topic at hand.

Carry on, Mal.

If anyone is trolling here, right now, I believe it's you.

Stop trolling my threads, Marm-troll.
 

Ivy

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Moved posts out of the "movies you didn't like the first time you watched them, but..." thread. This is a thought-provoking topic, but it is ultimately a different topic.

BTW, moving those posts should not be interpreted as a sign that anybody did anything wrong in the other thread, but some of the later posts in this string get pretty close to the line. Please don't namecall and flamebait each other.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.
 

Thalassa

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Mal just because you don't like what I am saying does not make me a troll.

I was being completely sincere and I actually did not intend for this to carry on to this extent, but you insisted, apparently.
 

EJCC

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Oh, the hoary old "white man can't know, he WASN'T THERE" trope. Honestly, Rex, I like you and I agree with many of your posts, but this is intellectually dishonest at best and disingenuous at worst. Shame on you for saying that we aren't allowed to have a considered opinion on this topic, that we can't be thoughtful enough to know the landscape. That as much as anything is responsible for the sorry state of racial politics. Everyone has the right to define what is offensive to them, but that doesn't have any larger meaning. The gulf between what someone finds offensive and an actual offense can sometimes be as wide as the ocean.
Since you said you'd bow out of the thread, I'm not sure if you'll get a chance to read this, but I think you're a cool guy, so I hope you'll read it with the knowledge that I'm trying to help in a friendly way:

Everyone is privileged, somehow. There's always some kind of privilege bias, and people who are privileged often are not very aware of their privilege, especially compared with those who don't have it. For example, I'm female, and am often rudely made aware of my lack of male privilege, usually by men but also by women on occasion -- and those who remind me usually have no idea that they're doing it. On the other hand, I'm white, and have definitely said stupid entitled shit, because, since I'm white, and since I wasn't raised in an environment where my white privilege would be pointed out to me very often, I sometimes forget that that privilege even exists. That's normal for any type of privilege, be it related to race, gender, mental health, or what have you.

Yes, everyone is offended by different things. Yes, it's easy to argue about what's offensive and what's not, and not everyone has a higher tolerance for "dark" humor. But what was being responded to, here, was the fact that the meme was racist and people thought it was funny because they didn't realize it was racist. It would be a whole different ball game if people were laughing at it with full awareness that it was racist, and thinking of it as a racist joke. But what's been happening here, has been repeated denial of the existence of racism in that meme -- with the logic of "I didn't see any racism there, and therefore it's debatable that it exists." There's also the possibility that the racism is there, and you didn't see it because that sort of thing doesn't offend you personally, because it isn't making fun of you.

(I don't think any less of people for occasionally forgetting their privilege, because I do it all the time, and pretty much everyone does. Which is why I said at the beginning, and will say again: Don't take this the wrong way.)
 
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