Zero Dark Thirty

[DiscoBiscuit]

I guess my thought was that there was a LOT of buzz -- until McCain and others opened their mouth and made a huge stink. In late Nov and most of December, Zero had ALL the buzz and seemed a shoe-in for Best Picture. But things changed once all the criticism of the torture portrayals came out.

The whole torture stink was ridiculous.

But I can't begrudge a former resident of the Hanoi Hilton his opinion.

 

[Totenkindly]

The whole torture stink was ridiculous.

I agree. I dare say that Zero took far less liberties with facts than Argo did, and it was always clear that there were multiple pathways used to acquire information, this was just a representation of one.

The complaints seemed political in nature, not artistic.

So they all voted for the "feel good" / easy analysis movie.

But I can't begrudge a former resident of the Hanoi Hilton his opinion.

I wonder how long one can play the "Hanoi" card. I'll give allowance where it is due, but at some point one has to put the current problem (in this case, the intent of a movie) in perspective.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I wonder how long one can play the "Hanoi" card. I'll give allowance where it is due, but at some point one has to put the current problem (in this case, the intent of a movie) in perspective.

For me at least, and in the interest of candor I have family friends that were tortured in Vietnam, the "Hanoi" card doesn't have a sell by date.

If you volunteer to put your life on the line for our country (putting aside for a moment the right or wrongness of the war your fighting), and in the course of executing your duty are captured and tortured, you've earned the right to say whatever the hell you want regarding torture.

More than that, I give more credence to the opinions (regarding the topic of war) of those who have experienced war in a more tangible way than the vast majority of the US populace could ever imagine.

 

[Totenkindly]

For me at least, and in the interest of candor I have family friends that were tortured in Vietnam, the "Hanoi" card doesn't have a sell by date.

If you volunteer to put your life on the line for our country (putting aside for a moment the right or wrongness of the war your fighting), and in the course of executing your duty are captured and tortured, you've earned the right to say whatever the hell you want regarding torture.

That's fine, and one reason I considered voting for McCain in 2000 (before Bush and cronies screwed him over in the Carolinas) was because I respected him, partly because of what he had been through in the name of the US. If he is making public declarations against torture, or talking about his experiences how that leads him to take a certain stance on use of torture by the US gov, then that is completely appropriate.

However, in this specific instance, we're not talking about that experience. We're talking about the intent of the movie, and he unfairly criticized it by twisting what the filmmaker was saying/doing, for some political or personal reason. I don't think anyone gets fair pass to do that just because they've "suffered more." Do we really want to play that game?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

That's fine, and one reason I considered voting for McCain in 2000 (before Bush and cronies screwed him over in the Carolinas) was because I respected him, partly because of what he had been through in the name of the US. If he is making public declarations against torture, or talking about his experiences how that leads him to take a certain stance on use of torture by the US gov, then that is completely appropriate.

However, in this specific instance, we're not talking about that experience. We're talking about the intent of the movie, and he unfairly criticized it by twisting what the filmmaker was saying/doing, for some political or personal reason. I don't think anyone gets fair pass to do that just because they've "suffered more." Do we really want to play that game?

It doesn't bother me as much probably because the game itself doesn't bother me as much.

That's not to say I agree with what they did, but just that I've gotten used to these kind of political machinations.

What they did was a total distortion, but its a predictable distortion given the nature of DC and Hollywood, and the perception is reality narrative building we see from both.

In a perfect world we wouldn't have to the play the game.

But the game is part of what keeps the powers that be in charge, and in my humble opinion changes to that game are much more likely to come from within it than without.

You can fuck shit up way more on the inside of a system than you can from without.

 

[Totenkindly]

That was so vague, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Basically, adaptation to screen for narrative purposes always involve changes and mergings of scenes and characters, to create a coherent story. And we had someone nitpicking the movie about something it was never trying to be.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

That was so vague, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Basically, adaptation to screen for narrative purposes always involve changes and mergings of scenes and characters, to create a coherent story. And we had someone nitpicking the movie about something it was never trying to be.

I'll get back to you with an explanation soon.

Shits going nuts at work.

 

[netzealot]

Movie was excellent and I can attest to it's accuracy. I've read 2 books written by Navy SEALs who were close to the operation and the details they mention align perfectly with the movie... they were also written in the years in between now and when UBL was killed, released during or before when the movie was being filmed so you know they aren't making anything up.

In case you don't know how water-boarding works, the suspect is on their back with a cloth over their mouth. Water is poured into their mouth and nose cavity. They can close their mouth but not their nose and eventually need to open their mouth to breath, and then more water will force itself in. Basically, without extensive resistance training the survival instinct kicks and the person believes they are actually drowning and this sensation goes on for minutes without killing the person, which is a horrible experience as you can imagine. It is indeed torture and has all the desirable aspects of torture without any elements that could leave the person dead or such a mess they can't answer any more question... so it can be used ad nauseum which is why it's highly effective.

The main male CIA agent tells the first suspect in the movie "everyone breaks... it's biology". And he is right. Sooner or later the person can't snap out of their survival instincts once the water-boarding stops, and that, just like when the procedure is in progress, overrides their higher thinking so they will give up critical information.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I was talking about the "game" people have to play when they are in the media spotlight, to stay in the spotlight.

This game is slightly different for politicians than it is for actors, or for news anchors or other establishment media sources, but the core concepts are the same.

What's happening on the ground (the truth as it were) is of secondary importance to how that truth is perceived and spun.

Whoever most successfully spins the truth, gains traction for their specific narrative of events with the populace.

Whether that narrative has any relevance to the "truth" is not important to many of our current class of power brokers (the people who shape public opinion).

I wasn't really talking about the actions of McCain et al. specifically at that point, but musing on the games the powerful play to stay that way.

This game I think, is one of the primary reasons people hate politics. A good example of this, would be the argument that politicians never say what they mean.

The problem, one that I don't think many understand, is that to even get a foot in the door one has to play the game (with a few notable exceptions mostly revolving around having money and access before deciding to play the game).

The game makes all the players dirty, but veteran players of the game won't trust someone who isn't equally dirty, or to put it more clearly won't operate under the accepted rule set therefore making the clean new player unpredictable, and consequently a potential liability to veteran players.

This train of discussion might not have cleared up much for you given it's fairly esoteric subject matter, but I hope it may prompt you to ask more questions that I'll do my best to answer.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

I'm glad the discussion of its depiction of torture came up in this thread.
The film doesn't "condone" or "condemn"--it has bigger and more philosophical fish to fry.

Was there even a real "point" to this movie? Not really. And that ultimately is the "point".

The actual subject matter is kind of irrelevant--this is a universal and timeless story.
This is the ugly world we live in and ZDT doesn't seem to like it very much.

At least that was the message I got out of it.

 

[Orangey]

It's funny because Michael Moore has garnered himself some hate for openly defending ZDT as an actively anti-torture film. He blames the snubbing on misogyny.

Here's his interpretation:

In Defense of Zero Dark Thirty

 

[Ginkgo]

I figured tickets would be popular given the premise of the movie, and since I greatly appreciated the Hurt Locker for what it easily could have been, I was extremely curious about Zero Dark Thirty. The Hurt Locker broke some standards for realism; anyone who's been in the military or has read a Tom Clancy novel... Hell, anyone who's played Call of Duty or Battleground would likely roll their eyes about some of the depictions Bigelow portrayed... Perhaps a film meant to be of realism was convoluted by anti-war sentiments... and in a desperate attempt to resuscitate the plot with more realism, shit completely flew off the handle.

Zero Dark Thirty was under heavier scrutiny, and it would have nearly been a public outrage if the script contained bastardized details.

And hey, dramas like Breaking Bad that oscillate between dark comedy and scenes that would make any man just cringe have been on the rise. Why wouldn't the chase for Bin Laden turn a few heads, given just how complex an impact Osama has had on the West?

 

[guesswho]

Is this about Bin Laden ?

They tryin' to convince the world he exists or what ?


hahahaa

 

[Ginkgo]

Is this about Bin Laden ?

They tryin' to convince the world he exists or what ?


hahahaa

Well, the way I see it, it was either Bush or Bin Laden.

So we took both out.

 

[jixmixfix]

Movie was excellent and I can attest to it's accuracy. I've read 2 books written by Navy SEALs who were close to the operation and the details they mention align perfectly with the movie... they were also written in the years in between now and when UBL was killed, released during or before when the movie was being filmed so you know they aren't making anything up.

In case you don't know how water-boarding works, the suspect is on their back with a cloth over their mouth. Water is poured into their mouth and nose cavity. They can close their mouth but not their nose and eventually need to open their mouth to breath, and then more water will force itself in. Basically, without extensive resistance training the survival instinct kicks and the person believes they are actually drowning and this sensation goes on for minutes without killing the person, which is a horrible experience as you can imagine. It is indeed torture and has all the desirable aspects of torture without any elements that could leave the person dead or such a mess they can't answer any more question... so it can be used ad nauseum which is why it's highly effective.

The main male CIA agent tells the first suspect in the movie "everyone breaks... it's biology". And he is right. Sooner or later the person can't snap out of their survival instincts once the water-boarding stops, and that, just like when the procedure is in progress, overrides their higher thinking so they will give up critical information.

If your head is somewhat down while the water is being poured you can still breathe through your nose, the persons head has to be facing upward so the water can get inside the nose. Water up your nose is no fun.

 

[jixmixfix]

It's funny because Michael Moore has garnered himself some hate for openly defending ZDT as an actively anti-torture film. He blames the snubbing on misogyny.

Here's his interpretation:

In Defense of Zero Dark Thirty

Reading that article the guy has a point.

 

[Giggly]

The fact still remains that Bin Laden was found because of torture, but of course, it wasn't torture done on Obama's watch. The "tip" given years earlier would have been ignored otherwise (like it was at the time).

And the insinuation that there's misogyny involved is ridiculous. Even the SEALs tell the same story (or very close) as Bigelow and they give major credit to the female CIA agent for her work. If it had been a guy, he probably would have been ignored too, given the circumstances.

And for the record, I didn't feel all that much empathy for the guy being tortured.

 

[Poindexter Arachnid]

The fact still remains that Bin Laden was found because of torture, but of course, it wasn't torture done on Obama's watch. The "tip" given years earlier would have been ignored otherwise (like it was at the time).

And the insinuation that there's misogyny involved is ridiculous. Even the SEALs tell the same story (or very close) as Bigelow and they give major credit to the female CIA agent for her work. If it had been a guy, he probably would have been ignored too, given the circumstances.

And for the record, I didn't feel all that much empathy for the guy being tortured.

Haha! Truth. I love it.

I recall reading articles from pundits trashing the movie because "It endorses torture!" and "Torture violates our moral integrity!"
What the hell are you idiots talking about? This is America. There is no "moral integrity" here. And ZDT wasn't afraid to say it.

This is one of the most balls-out movies ever made. And it was most certainly the movie I had been expecting since Al-Queda operatives crashed planes into the World Trade Center. This movie DOES NOT endorse "nationalism". Like I mentioned in a previous post: "This is the ugly world we live in and Zero Dark Thirty doesn't appear to like it very much." This was easily the best picture of 2012 (*middle finger to the Academy*) and as far as I'm concerned it is far too efficient in quality to receive empty statues and likewise hosannas.

Just because it isn't "your" propaganda doesn't mean it doesn't strive for the same objective(s) you do.
It simply approaches the subject it in a more adult, thought-provoking and unflinching manner.

 

[Giggly]

And it was most certainly the movie I had been expecting since Al-Queda operatives crashed planes into the World Trade Center.

Right!

 

[kyuuei]

The fact still remains that Bin Laden was found because of torture, but of course, it wasn't torture done on Obama's watch. The "tip" given years earlier would have been ignored otherwise (like it was at the time).

And the insinuation that there's misogyny involved is ridiculous. Even the SEALs tell the same story (or very close) as Bigelow and they give major credit to the female CIA agent for her work. If it had been a guy, he probably would have been ignored too, given the circumstances.

And for the record, I didn't feel all that much empathy for the guy being tortured.

It is hard to feel empathy for the guy being tortured.. though I don't think it is out of hate for the guy. If I were in his shoes, I'd do the same stubborn thing.. there are risks with everything you do in life. I don't think we should use torture, I'm not saying I agree with it, just that if you're going to be in the bad guy zone on any side, you should be prepared for situations like that.

I saw zero sexism in that movie as well.. Everyone talked and related to each other on a fairly neutral basis actually, which is typical for higher echelon professional environments. There are tons of movies where guys 'know' long before their bosses figure it out, and are ignored.

What the hell are you idiots talking about? This is America. There is no "moral integrity" here.

A very unfortunate truth in our country.