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  1. #21
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I haven't heard of that, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's not too hard to demonstrate.

    *youtube*
    Crazy!

  2. #22
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Should be a good movie.


    On the subject of torture, I don't know how I feel about it.
    It's a catch-22. Basically the person administering the water boarding would need to know the person's guilt, and simply be looking for a way to extract an admission to it for documentation purposes. A person being water boarded is probably going to tell the torturer (for lack of a better term) pretty much anything they want to hear in order to put a halt to the water boarding process... That doesn't seem like a surefire way to get the actual "truth".

  3. #23
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    @swordpath


    Yeah. Hard to say. I guarantee a lot of useful information can and has been gleaned throughout history due to methods of torture used during interrogation.


    I'm definitely not against it on moral grounds. If anything, it'd be the argument you've presented. I like @DiscoBiscuit's specification of on-site practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It's a catch-22. Basically the person administering the water boarding would need to know the person's guilt, and simply be looking for a way to extract an admission to it for documentation purposes. A person being water boarded is probably going to tell the torturer (for lack of a better term) pretty much anything they want to hear in order to put a halt to the water boarding process... That doesn't seem like a surefire way to get the actual "truth".
    That's most liable to happen with untrained prisoners or civilians.

    Trained opposition, as in the kind of elite within terrorist organizations most likely to have strategically valuable info, are liable to laugh at interrogation techniques approved by the UN.

  5. #25
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It's a catch-22. Basically the person administering the water boarding would need to know the person's guilt, and simply be looking for a way to extract an admission to it for documentation purposes. A person being water boarded is probably going to tell the torturer (for lack of a better term) pretty much anything they want to hear in order to put a halt to the water boarding process... That doesn't seem like a surefire way to get the actual "truth".
    AND...

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    That's most liable to happen with untrained prisoners or civilians.

    Trained opposition, as in the kind of elite within terrorist organizations most likely to have strategically valuable info, are liable to laugh at interrogation techniques approved by the UN.
    An professor of mine who is a retired Colonel and who has an extensive international career at the diplomat level spoke with me about interrogation in the intelligence community when he and his wife came to dinner at my house one evening.

    He offered the following simplistic guidance.

    (1) Interrogation does not start with torture. The first thing done is to simply transfer the detainee/prisoner/person of interest to a conference room instead of their normal, drab, uncomfortable holding quarters. Then they are offered simple things, like food, a cigarrette, or a drink of whiskey. If the person chooses to go the path of "I can work with these people the nice way, or the hard way" then everyone is spared the hassle of various kinds of torture.

    (2) However, if things do not go well with step 1 above, then the possibility of more "uncomfortable" forms of interrogation can be considered. The number of options is vast indeed. What works well on one person might not on another, and vice versa - depending on each given person's own personal fears learned through life experience, and even more simply the strength of their will and ability to bear pain/being doped up/etc.

    (3) If the subject at hand has information that is believed to be vital to obtain in a timely manner in order to SAVE LIVES (of the innocent) or END THE LIFE (of a terrorist/foreign operative/miltant/etc.) then there is of course a direct route to doing whatever is necessary to get the information as quickly as possible.

    (4) Contrary to popular belief, no amount of training is guaranteed to make a person "torture-proof." The more accurate heuristic is "It's not IF a person will tell what they know, it's WHEN they will tell, and that is after the correct stimulus is applied, and just as important, their questioning performed in a systematic way to ensure they are offering useful information (checking preliminary resposnes against known information, etc.) instead of making anything up just to get out of the hot seat.

    (5) My take on it is simple. As a kid, terrorist from the Red Army Brigade/Bader-Meinhof repeatedly attacked U.S. soldiers in their places of living, at thier offices, at public places, and even threatened to kill the children of U.S. families. Me and my friends/neighbors/classmates had to go to school on a different touring bus every day so that we could not be easily spotted on the Autobahn and attacked/killed. I cannot tell you how many times my elementary school had bombthreats called in to it. I lived in a neighborhood that was encircled with Concitno (sp?) wire, patrolled by military police with M-16's, and with K9 German Shepherds 24 hours per day to prevent anyone from sneaking in to our neighborhood and do us harm.

    So, my take on torture and terrorists? Fuck yeah. Go for it. The shit I lived through was not fun to live with. I was 8 - 10 years old when all that happened. It didn't freak me out; it pissed me off actually. But I read many stories of guys whose legs got blown off when they started their cars, or shot at as they left their offices, and that is just fucked up. So, wherever there is the possibility that someone on the wrong side of things (aka anyone from anywhere trying to kill innocent people) - if they get picked up by the local or international authorities and fucked over 007 style in order to prevent them, or any of their scum fuck buddies from killing innocent people, then so be it. I lose no sleep, nor shed a tear for any of them. May they all rot in hell for eternity, and have an excruciatingly horrifying torture and death if need be here on Earth. Some people have it coming. Fuck them all.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post

    (4) Contrary to popular belief, no amount of training is guaranteed to make a person "torture-proof." The more accurate heuristic is "It's not IF a person will tell what they know, it's WHEN they will tell, and that is after the correct stimulus is applied, and just as important, their questioning performed in a systematic way to ensure they are offering useful information (checking preliminary resposnes against known information, etc.) instead of making anything up just to get out of the hot seat.
    Years ago, I read a book that interviewed current and former CIA officers/agents and this subject was brought up in the first chapter. When your captors go to work, you'll eventually spill the beans. It isn't at all like the movies.

  7. #27
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Yes, I heard that SEALs and pilots do some training with waterboarding.
    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I haven't heard of that, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's not too hard to demonstrate.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviva...nce_and_Escape

    My dad (who was in the 7th Special Forces Group) did it at Camp Mackall.

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It's a catch-22. Basically the person administering the water boarding would need to know the person's guilt, and simply be looking for a way to extract an admission to it for documentation purposes. A person being water boarded is probably going to tell the torturer (for lack of a better term) pretty much anything they want to hear in order to put a halt to the water boarding process... That doesn't seem like a surefire way to get the actual "truth".
    Exactly.

    The North Vietnamese did a lot of torturing. Many of the prisoners didn't have any particularly juicy information to reveal, so the NVA just kept torturing them. Eventually a lot of POWs started making things up in an effort to make the torture stop.
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  8. #28
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I also want to add that, even though I'm nosey and want to see it, I ultimately feel that this movie should NOT have been made. There has been too much talk and media press about the SEALs. All this attention is putting their lives in danger. I wish all the attention would die down and quick.
    While this is true, it's difficult to make that argument when people who were there already wrote books about it and they just had that other big SEAL movie.



    It will probably be a good movie but the title is kind of annoying. I've heard "O Dark Thirty" multiple times but I've never heard someone say "Zero Dark Thirty" unless they were talking about this movie.

    Unless this is some Navy thing, I'd say it's a research fail on par with calling every special operations unit SF, which they hopefully don't do in this movie.
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  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    While this is true, it's difficult to make that argument when people who were there already wrote books about it and they just had that other big SEAL movie.
    What, Act of Valor? It didn't receive very high marks, unfortunately, although it had a great trailer tune from Snow Patrol.

    But yeah, it's not just this movie was going new places, and it's actually taken longer to bring to fruition.

    It will probably be a good movie but the title is kind of annoying. I've heard "O Dark Thirty" multiple times but I've never heard someone say "Zero Dark Thirty" unless they were talking about this movie.
    What does O Dark Thirty mean? 12:30am? I've never heard the phrase before.

    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I haven't heard of that, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's not too hard to demonstrate.
    Yeah, it seems pretty basic in approach. I watched the video, which I don't think still really captures what it's like in that situation, for the mere fact that when you're being interrogated you don't really know whether they plan to let you live.

    In the video, the guy knows at least that he's not gonna die; but if you think ultimately they might either kill you on purpose if you don't make them happy, and maybe even smother you this way even if you DO talk... well, that adds another whole component to the mix IMO.

    Kind of the same bizarre aspect to dismemberment (starting with the fingers), except obviously for that you can prove you've been tortured and maybe you wouldn't want to live, after. This doesn't really have any obvious signs, afterwards. And it's hard to imagine dealing with that fear and the smothering for two hours in one shot. It would be hard to get a breath in the few seconds your face isn't covered, due to all the water running through your nose and throat.
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  10. #30
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What does O Dark Thirty mean? 12:30am? I've never heard the phrase before.
    It's not an actual time. It's really just like late at night/early in the morning. The two times I've normally heard it are right before either a cool guy story or everyone starts groaning and complaining.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

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