User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 15

  1. #1
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    1,764

    Default A song of ice and fire by G.R.R. Martin

    Okay, maybe this is just the frustrated wannabe writer again, but...

    I've read the first 40-something pages of "A song of ice and fire". The prologue I thought was okay. Not great, but okay. I didn't need that much repetitions of how inexperienced the leader was. The rest... pah. I can do better.
    - Why does it have to mix the stories of so many people? Is this a requirement for fantasy? Once, I alternated between only two stories of only two people and my readers thought it confusing already. But Martin gets away with it (as do many other well-known writers).
    - Why does it have to describe all the guests of a feast in great detail? There are more parts I wanted to skip, but this is the most obvious one. If I add this much description, my readers (including a few publishers) tell me I should start the story already.

    I have tremendous problems with starting a story, especially a fantasy or science fiction one. You need to make the reader familiar with the world (without a geography/history/magic/future tech lecture), you've got to introduce the characters and describe them, AND you need some conflict. So I thought I'd study some popular books in the genre. But then I encounter things like this. It's not the only one, either, but perhaps the most popular one.

    A question for the fans of Martin! What is it that gripped you? What is it that made you want to read further? Why do you like it?
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  2. #2
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    STFU
    Posts
    496

    Default

    It takes me a while to read a book cause I usually only read on public transportation. I read all 5 of the Ice and Fire books in a couple of months after season 1 of the show ended. Having to wait till book six really sucks.

    I don't think ensemble pieces are genre specific. I rather enjoy interwoven stories. The world-building George RR Martin achieves is something quite spectacular, and the arcs that each character goes through are indeed worth the trip. In all I find the series sprawling, emotionally gut-wrenching and utterly enthralling in all of the right ways. I am not a fan of happy endings and this series quenches my blood thirst quite a bit. Its all a series of grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be. I love it. By the end of each book the tiniest thread of hope for the characters that remain alive keeps me foaming at the mouth for more.

    Why does G.R.R.M. go into so much detail about feasts? Have you seen what he looks like? You could fit half of Alaska between his chins.

    I am a writer as well (ensemble pieces/world building etc.) and seeing what he has achieved is at times quite intimidating, mostly because he actually found a way to get out of his own head and follow through writing as much as he has. Writers block sucks. Currently experiencing that bullshit. I'm pretty sure its not the weed, but the fact I work corporate retail sucks the life out of me by the time I get home after my long shifts.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
    -
    J.Krishnamurti

  3. #3
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    His characters are well written. I care about what happens to them.

    The plot is compelling and unpredictable. I have no idea how it's all going to come together or even who he's going to kill next.

    The world-building is pretty standard high fantasy.

    I just hope he doesn't pull a Robert Jordan.

    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #4
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INtp
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    5,091

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Okay, maybe this is just the frustrated wannabe writer again, but...

    I've read the first 40-something pages of "A song of ice and fire". The prologue I thought was okay. Not great, but okay. I didn't need that much repetitions of how inexperienced the leader was. The rest... pah. I can do better.
    - Why does it have to mix the stories of so many people? Is this a requirement for fantasy? Once, I alternated between only two stories of only two people and my readers thought it confusing already. But Martin gets away with it (as do many other well-known writers).
    - Why does it have to describe all the guests of a feast in great detail? There are more parts I wanted to skip, but this is the most obvious one. If I add this much description, my readers (including a few publishers) tell me I should start the story already.

    I have tremendous problems with starting a story, especially a fantasy or science fiction one. You need to make the reader familiar with the world (without a geography/history/magic/future tech lecture), you've got to introduce the characters and describe them, AND you need some conflict. So I thought I'd study some popular books in the genre. But then I encounter things like this. It's not the only one, either, but perhaps the most popular one.

    A question for the fans of Martin! What is it that gripped you? What is it that made you want to read further? Why do you like it?
    I had the same problem as you. I've tried a couple of times but couldn't get past the first few chapters. I do like the TV series.

    I have trouble in general with books that introduce too many characters early on that you have to take notes to keep track of them all. Or when in one chapter you have characters A, B and C and then in the next chapter you have characters X, Y and Z but it isn't clearly mentioned of how all six of them interrelate. Or if there is you don't find out until several chapters into the book.
    INtp
    5w6 or 9w1 sp/so/sx, I think
    Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff
    Neutral Good
    LII-Ne




  5. #5
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    Thanks to all of you!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    It takes me a while to read a book cause I usually only read on public transportation. I read all 5 of the Ice and Fire books in a couple of months after season 1 of the show ended. Having to wait till book six really sucks.
    I don't think ensemble pieces are genre specific. I rather enjoy interwoven stories. The world-building George RR Martin achieves is something quite spectacular, and the arcs that each character goes through are indeed worth the trip. In all I find the series sprawling, emotionally gut-wrenching and utterly enthralling in all of the right ways. I am not a fan of happy endings and this series quenches my blood thirst quite a bit. Its all a series of grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be. I love it. By the end of each book the tiniest thread of hope for the characters that remain alive keeps me foaming at the mouth for more.
    Why does G.R.R.M. go into so much detail about feasts? Have you seen what he looks like? You could fit half of Alaska between his chins.

    I am a writer as well (ensemble pieces/world building etc.) and seeing what he has achieved is at times quite intimidating, mostly because he actually found a way to get out of his own head and follow through writing as much as he has. Writers block sucks. Currently experiencing that bullshit. I'm pretty sure its not the weed, but the fact I work corporate retail sucks the life out of me by the time I get home after my long shifts.
    Thanks for the spoiler (grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be.) Now I know I shouldn't read further. I hate such endings. Indeed, he succeeds at making you read further by giving you bits and pieces of hope. Like you'd think somebody's actions can actually influence his life. If ultimately, the great lesson is, "don't ever try, you won't have any influence on your fate, ambition is an illusion and apathy a virtue"... well, I've read more than enough of those "lessons" already. They were the staple of our high school compulsory reading. I find it depressing.
    Right now I'm at the first death - and yes, Martin succeeds at making me feel something about that character. I feel at once (1) frustrated, because everybody will think his death was due to recklessness while he was murdered, (2) relieved, because that's one character less to follow and (3) angered, because after the description of his climbing talent, I wanted him to be a hero.

    Also, this is supposed to be fantasy. If I want to read about court intrigues, I'd take historical works! Okay, you can mix a little, but up till now the fantasy flavor was only present in the prologue. A much better (to my taste) mix of intrigue and fantasy is The first law by J. Abercrombie.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    His characters are well written. I care about what happens to them.
    The plot is compelling and unpredictable. I have no idea how it's all going to come together or even who he's going to kill next.
    The world-building is pretty standard high fantasy.
    I just hope he doesn't pull a Robert Jordan.
    Characters yes! But why do they have to die the moment you know enough about them to care?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I had the same problem as you. I've tried a couple of times but couldn't get past the first few chapters. I do like the TV series.
    I have trouble in general with books that introduce too many characters early on that you have to take notes to keep track of them all. Or when in one chapter you have characters A, B and C and then in the next chapter you have characters X, Y and Z but it isn't clearly mentioned of how all six of them interrelate. Or if there is you don't find out until several chapters into the book.
    I've got the same. I usually focus on one single main character. I guess this choice limits my possibilities for explaining the world. If the reader learns only in the middle of the book that there were undead behind that wall, he'll ask where that suddenly came from. These guards being attacked by the undead in the prologue made their appearance (whenever they will appear, I haven't seen them since) logical and anticipated.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  6. #6
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    STFU
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Thanks for the spoiler (grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be.) Now I know I shouldn't read further. I hate such endings. Indeed, he succeeds at making you read further by giving you bits and pieces of hope. Like you'd think somebody's actions can actually influence his life. If ultimately, the great lesson is, "don't ever try, you won't have any influence on your fate, ambition is an illusion and apathy a virtue"... well, I've read more than enough of those "lessons" already. They were the staple of our high school compulsory reading. I find it depressing.
    eh, i don't consider what i said much of a spoiler (especially if you have watched the show). the tiny threads of hope are compelling enough to care in my opinion, mostly due to the fact that the story is not over yet, and things get more and more interesting as the story goes on. certain characters who may seem dull or inconsequential in the beginning get more important roles as the story goes on.

    ok here's a minor spoiler, bran's story gets really fucking rad.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
    -
    J.Krishnamurti

  7. #7
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    STFU
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I just hope he doesn't pull a Robert Jordan.

    what does this entail? i am unfamiliar with robert jordan.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
    -
    J.Krishnamurti

  8. #8
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Characters yes! But why do they have to die the moment you know enough about them to care?
    I don't like that part, but it does reflect what Martin is trying to do, as I understand it: write gritty, realistic epic fantasy. IRL, when you paint a ruthless sociopath with unlimited money and nearly unlimited power into a corner, you've got a decent chance of getting dead.

    However, if he kills Tyrion, I'm probably going to throw the book across the room.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #9
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    what does this entail? i am unfamiliar with robert jordan.
    Jordan authored The Wheel of Time series.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #10
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    STFU
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Jordan authored The Wheel of Time series.
    oh yeah that would suck.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
    -
    J.Krishnamurti

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-29-2017, 07:39 AM
  2. favorite album and song of each decade
    By Flâneuse in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-26-2017, 11:29 PM
  3. Game of Thrones / G.R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" (tv & book series)
    By nightwatcher in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 145
    Last Post: 01-30-2017, 07:59 AM
  4. An example of the working of type as defined by the "Hero" and "Parent" ego states
    By Eric B in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-18-2016, 07:13 PM
  5. [MBTItm] The Proper Care and Feeding of Sensors: A Manual by Sensors for Intuitives
    By Esoteric Wench in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 02-15-2010, 04:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO