A song of ice and fire by G.R.R. Martin

[Tamske]

Okay, maybe this is just the frustrated wannabe writer again, but...

I've read the first 40-something pages of "A song of ice and fire". The prologue I thought was okay. Not great, but okay. I didn't need that much repetitions of how inexperienced the leader was. The rest... pah. I can do better.
- Why does it have to mix the stories of so many people? Is this a requirement for fantasy? Once, I alternated between only two stories of only two people and my readers thought it confusing already. But Martin gets away with it (as do many other well-known writers).
- Why does it have to describe all the guests of a feast in great detail? There are more parts I wanted to skip, but this is the most obvious one. If I add this much description, my readers (including a few publishers) tell me I should start the story already.

I have tremendous problems with starting a story, especially a fantasy or science fiction one. You need to make the reader familiar with the world (without a geography/history/magic/future tech lecture), you've got to introduce the characters and describe them, AND you need some conflict. So I thought I'd study some popular books in the genre. But then I encounter things like this. It's not the only one, either, but perhaps the most popular one.

A question for the fans of Martin! What is it that gripped you? What is it that made you want to read further? Why do you like it?

 

[r.a]

It takes me a while to read a book cause I usually only read on public transportation. I read all 5 of the Ice and Fire books in a couple of months after season 1 of the show ended. Having to wait till book six really sucks.

I don't think ensemble pieces are genre specific. I rather enjoy interwoven stories. The world-building George RR Martin achieves is something quite spectacular, and the arcs that each character goes through are indeed worth the trip. In all I find the series sprawling, emotionally gut-wrenching and utterly enthralling in all of the right ways. I am not a fan of happy endings and this series quenches my blood thirst quite a bit. Its all a series of grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be. I love it. By the end of each book the tiniest thread of hope for the characters that remain alive keeps me foaming at the mouth for more.

Why does G.R.R.M. go into so much detail about feasts? Have you seen what he looks like? You could fit half of Alaska between his chins.

I am a writer as well (ensemble pieces/world building etc.) and seeing what he has achieved is at times quite intimidating, mostly because he actually found a way to get out of his own head and follow through writing as much as he has. Writers block sucks. Currently experiencing that bullshit. I'm pretty sure its not the weed, but the fact I work corporate retail sucks the life out of me by the time I get home after my long shifts.

 

[cafe]

His characters are well written. I care about what happens to them.

The plot is compelling and unpredictable. I have no idea how it's all going to come together or even who he's going to kill next.

The world-building is pretty standard high fantasy.

I just hope he doesn't pull a Robert Jordan.

 

[Such Irony]

Okay, maybe this is just the frustrated wannabe writer again, but...

I've read the first 40-something pages of "A song of ice and fire". The prologue I thought was okay. Not great, but okay. I didn't need that much repetitions of how inexperienced the leader was. The rest... pah. I can do better.
- Why does it have to mix the stories of so many people? Is this a requirement for fantasy? Once, I alternated between only two stories of only two people and my readers thought it confusing already. But Martin gets away with it (as do many other well-known writers).
- Why does it have to describe all the guests of a feast in great detail? There are more parts I wanted to skip, but this is the most obvious one. If I add this much description, my readers (including a few publishers) tell me I should start the story already.

I have tremendous problems with starting a story, especially a fantasy or science fiction one. You need to make the reader familiar with the world (without a geography/history/magic/future tech lecture), you've got to introduce the characters and describe them, AND you need some conflict. So I thought I'd study some popular books in the genre. But then I encounter things like this. It's not the only one, either, but perhaps the most popular one.

A question for the fans of Martin! What is it that gripped you? What is it that made you want to read further? Why do you like it?

I had the same problem as you. I've tried a couple of times but couldn't get past the first few chapters. I do like the TV series.

I have trouble in general with books that introduce too many characters early on that you have to take notes to keep track of them all. Or when in one chapter you have characters A, B and C and then in the next chapter you have characters X, Y and Z but it isn't clearly mentioned of how all six of them interrelate. Or if there is you don't find out until several chapters into the book.

 

[Tamske]

Thanks to all of you!

It takes me a while to read a book cause I usually only read on public transportation. I read all 5 of the Ice and Fire books in a couple of months after season 1 of the show ended. Having to wait till book six really sucks.
I don't think ensemble pieces are genre specific. I rather enjoy interwoven stories. The world-building George RR Martin achieves is something quite spectacular, and the arcs that each character goes through are indeed worth the trip. In all I find the series sprawling, emotionally gut-wrenching and utterly enthralling in all of the right ways. I am not a fan of happy endings and this series quenches my blood thirst quite a bit. Its all a series of grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be. I love it. By the end of each book the tiniest thread of hope for the characters that remain alive keeps me foaming at the mouth for more.
Why does G.R.R.M. go into so much detail about feasts? Have you seen what he looks like? You could fit half of Alaska between his chins.

I am a writer as well (ensemble pieces/world building etc.) and seeing what he has achieved is at times quite intimidating, mostly because he actually found a way to get out of his own head and follow through writing as much as he has. Writers block sucks. Currently experiencing that bullshit. I'm pretty sure its not the weed, but the fact I work corporate retail sucks the life out of me by the time I get home after my long shifts.

Thanks for the spoiler (grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be.) Now I know I shouldn't read further. I hate such endings. Indeed, he succeeds at making you read further by giving you bits and pieces of hope. Like you'd think somebody's actions can actually influence his life. If ultimately, the great lesson is, "don't ever try, you won't have any influence on your fate, ambition is an illusion and apathy a virtue"... well, I've read more than enough of those "lessons" already. They were the staple of our high school compulsory reading. I find it depressing.
Right now I'm at the first death - and yes, Martin succeeds at making me feel something about that character. I feel at once (1) frustrated, because everybody will think his death was due to recklessness while he was murdered, (2) relieved, because that's one character less to follow and (3) angered, because after the description of his climbing talent, I wanted him to be a hero.

Also, this is supposed to be fantasy. If I want to read about court intrigues, I'd take historical works! Okay, you can mix a little, but up till now the fantasy flavor was only present in the prologue. A much better (to my taste) mix of intrigue and fantasy is The first law by J. Abercrombie.

His characters are well written. I care about what happens to them.
The plot is compelling and unpredictable. I have no idea how it's all going to come together or even who he's going to kill next.
The world-building is pretty standard high fantasy.
I just hope he doesn't pull a Robert Jordan.

Characters yes! But why do they have to die the moment you know enough about them to care?

I had the same problem as you. I've tried a couple of times but couldn't get past the first few chapters. I do like the TV series.
I have trouble in general with books that introduce too many characters early on that you have to take notes to keep track of them all. Or when in one chapter you have characters A, B and C and then in the next chapter you have characters X, Y and Z but it isn't clearly mentioned of how all six of them interrelate. Or if there is you don't find out until several chapters into the book.

I've got the same. I usually focus on one single main character. I guess this choice limits my possibilities for explaining the world. If the reader learns only in the middle of the book that there were undead behind that wall, he'll ask where that suddenly came from. These guards being attacked by the undead in the prologue made their appearance (whenever they will appear, I haven't seen them since) logical and anticipated.

 

[r.a]

Thanks for the spoiler (grandiose crescendos leading usually to epic disappointments. Kinda like real life can be.) Now I know I shouldn't read further. I hate such endings. Indeed, he succeeds at making you read further by giving you bits and pieces of hope. Like you'd think somebody's actions can actually influence his life. If ultimately, the great lesson is, "don't ever try, you won't have any influence on your fate, ambition is an illusion and apathy a virtue"... well, I've read more than enough of those "lessons" already. They were the staple of our high school compulsory reading. I find it depressing.

eh, i don't consider what i said much of a spoiler (especially if you have watched the show). the tiny threads of hope are compelling enough to care in my opinion, mostly due to the fact that the story is not over yet, and things get more and more interesting as the story goes on. certain characters who may seem dull or inconsequential in the beginning get more important roles as the story goes on.

ok here's a minor spoiler, bran's story gets really fucking rad.

 

[r.a]

I just hope he doesn't pull a Robert Jordan.

what does this entail? i am unfamiliar with robert jordan.

 

[cafe]

Characters yes! But why do they have to die the moment you know enough about them to care?

I don't like that part, but it does reflect what Martin is trying to do, as I understand it: write gritty, realistic epic fantasy. IRL, when you paint a ruthless sociopath with unlimited money and nearly unlimited power into a corner, you've got a decent chance of getting dead.

However, if he kills Tyrion, I'm probably going to throw the book across the room.

 

[cafe]

what does this entail? i am unfamiliar with robert jordan.

Jordan authored The Wheel of Time series.

“pulling a Robert Jordan” has turned into a short hand for a series that just keeps on growing and one has to fear that the author won’t live long enough to tell the entire story.

 

[r.a]

Jordan authored The Wheel of Time series.

oh yeah that would suck.

 

[cafe]

oh yeah that would suck.

Yep. He's getting older and is obviously overweight. It makes a person nervous.

 

[Fluffywolf]

It didn't grip me, I started to skip characters I had little interest in and focused (at first) on Arya mainly. But then that story went all the way to "What the f...?" as well and I couldn't bother anymore.

 

[Tamske]

Okay, I did read further. He has this knack of compelling you to read further. I wish I had the same, so I could tell my stories in a better way!

I'm now three-quarters through the first book. And I've got a double feeling. I'm bored to death AND I can't put it down. Frustrating.
He keeps me up with promises of "it will get better": the undead-thingies in the prologue, dragon skeletons and old, but eerily warm dragon eggs, budding heroes in the first chapter - I want those heroes and undead and dragons and adventures! So I've kept up and read 400+ pages of medieval history, geography, politics, intrigue, fashion and gastronomy. I almost missed the one page fight with the undead, because I was skipping parts.
The worst thing is that I tend to remember everything I read, except names. So while I'm thinking "Tyrion, who the hell is Tyrion again? The dwarf? Oh no, it doesn't say Tyrion, it says Tywin. Who is THAT???", I remember the backstories of the guards who were killed in the prologue. My whole memory is now cluttered with histories as boring as the real ones, but I can't even use them to score brownie points with my history buff husband and father-in-law. Where are those dragons Martin keeps on promising? Book eight?

I'm playing with the idea to get a set of markers and mark the good parts, the parts which make me want to read further. Maybe this way I can learn something.

 

[_eric_]

I've read all five books and I have the first season of the tv series on blu-ray; I love them all and have had no trouble keeping track of everything.

 

[Randomnity]

His books are often painful for me to get through because his actual writing is really, really boring (to me). Books 4 and 5 were especially dry.

But, his characters are wonderful (especially because they aren't always wonderful) and the plot is constantly surprising me. I want to see what happens. I liked the first season of the TV series more than the books because they kept all the interesting things without his writing involved. (and filmed very very well).

Oddly, I've enjoyed some of his other stories, but hated others. He seems to be hit or miss for me, I guess depending mostly on whether he makes me care about the characters and the plot is interesting.


edit: I also really love the alternating perspectives, although it was insanely confusing for the first book or two. The TV series might have helped with that by giving a face to the name (I re-read book 1 and read the rest of the series only after seeing the TV show, since the first book was ok but not exciting enough on its own to make me read the rest). I liked books 2 and 3 a lot more than the first one.

edit2: I also really love that it's fantasy, but not like, dragons splattered everywhere.