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Metal. Is it music?

Metal. Is it music?


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KDude

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I pity you 25 and unders.. you have an entirely different concept of what "metal" is, and judge accordingly (and I agree that most of it sucks). Metal has been around for almost 40 years now though. It's not that simple to classify. It's hard to have a discussion when we're not all referring to the same thing.
 

sprinkles

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I pity you 25 and unders.. you have an entirely different concept of what "metal" is, and judge accordingly (and I agree that most of it sucks). Metal has been around for almost 40 years now though. It's not that simple to classify. It's hard to have a discussion when we're not all referring to the same thing.
Everything sucks according to somebody.

Then it becomes a question of 'taste', which - in my opinion - usually culminates in blatant snobbery which entirely erases anything good about it.

Elitism makes one an ugly person. And thus people continue to defy the hell out of it because expression is the beautiful thing.
 

sprinkles

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[MENTION=9214]KDude[/MENTION]

Also old metal is not dead yet.
Have some stoner groove.
 

greenfairy

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The question was "Is it" and not "Do you think it is". Subjective answers do not fit objective questions.
I don't think there is an objective answer to it, so subjective is what we have left.
I don't think you can quantify a subjective with another subjective. Saying it has beauty in it actually says nothing at all because then you have to figure out what beauty is.
You kind of have to qualify it that way, because music is not objective, and so its definition would not be either.

mu·sic
/ˈmyo͞ozik/
Noun
1. The art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion.
2. The vocal or instrumental sound produced in this way.

The definition contains subjective concepts. What makes an auditory sensation music as opposed to another sound is an aesthetic judgment, which is necessarily subjective.

I pity you 25 and unders.. you have an entirely different concept of what "metal" is, and judge accordingly (and I agree that most of it sucks). Metal has been around for almost 40 years now though. It's not that simple to classify. It's hard to have a discussion when we're not all referring to the same thing.
I agree this affects the conversation and biases answers. I'm not under 25, but I have only been exposed to that one kind of metal which neither of us cares for (and which I don't consider music). So when I answered the question, from my experience at the time, I was going on that. "Objectively" speaking, outside of my experience, I acknowledge that there are other kinds which could fit a definition of music.
 

sprinkles

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I don't think there is an objective answer to it, so subjective is what we have left.

You kind of have to qualify it that way, because music is not objective, and so its definition would not be either.

mu·sic
/ˈmyo͞ozik/
Noun
1. The art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion.
2. The vocal or instrumental sound produced in this way.

The definition contains subjective concepts. What makes an auditory sensation music as opposed to another sound is an aesthetic judgment, which is necessarily subjective.

As I said earlier, that definition is antiquated and was likely made when women wore mile wide bustles because they were 'beautiful'.

Music is personal. Like a god is personal. Maybe more personal than that.

You mess with someone's music, you mess with their inner being. Music is my life. You mess with my music, you mess with my life.
 

greenfairy

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As I said earlier, that definition is antiquated and was likely made when women wore mile wide bustles because they were 'beautiful'.

Music is personal. Like a god is personal. Maybe more personal than that.

You mess with someone's music, you mess with their inner being. Music is my life. You mess with my music, you mess with my life.
Yes, and you just said it's subjective. So to the extent that one can describe it objectively, we have to use subjective sounding words like beauty and harmony and rhythm, and then use our personal judgment to evaluate whether something fits. We can form our own definitions, but they will necessarily be subjective as well.
 

sprinkles

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Yes, and you just said it's subjective. So to the extent that one can describe it objectively, we have to use subjective sounding words like beauty and harmony and rhythm, and then use our personal judgment to evaluate whether something fits. We can form our own definitions, but they will necessarily be subjective as well.

Why do that in the first place? It kind of sours the whole deal when you try to define it. But maybe that's just my own subjective opinion.

As one who has made music and appreciated everything between Mozart and Meshuggah, I'm kind of affronted by attempts to classify it.
 

greenfairy

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Why do that in the first place? It kind of sours the whole deal when you try to define it. But maybe that's just my own subjective opinion.

As one who has made music and appreciated everything between Mozart and Meshuggah, I'm kind of affronted by attempts to classify it.
That's a valid perspective, certainly. I play music, but I don't create it; I might be a little put off by attempts to classify things I creatively produce. I am certainly put off by rigid classifications of my personality type, even though I tried to do it myself in the beginning. I along with a lot of other people simply feel the need to categorize things in order to make sense of the world and feel uncomfortable if things don't fit into that process.
 

sprinkles

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That's a valid perspective, certainly. I play music, but I don't create it; I might be a little put off by attempts to classify things I creatively produce. I am certainly put off by rigid classifications of my personality type, even though I tried to do it myself in the beginning. I along with a lot of other people simply feel the need to categorize things in order to make sense of the world and feel uncomfortable if things don't fit into that process.

Yeah. I'm for categorizing music so that you can find more of it if you want to.

Otherwise though, a little chaos can be cathartic to some people.
 

Qlip

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If metal is music, is it still music if it's played by robots?

 

Qlip

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That's a Motorhead song, so yes. The robots are playing it but they did not make it.

Hah, thanks for clearing that up, Sprinkles. ;) I was just looking for an OP relevant premise to post this vid.
(I've seen Motorhead in concert.)
 

sprinkles

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Hah, thanks for clearing that up, Sprinkles. ;) I was just looking for an OP relevant premise to post this vid.
(I've seen Motorhead in concert.)

Haha sorry, I wasn't sure. The concept of robots making music is an interesting one so I thought that's what you were shooting for.
 

Qlip

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Haha sorry, I wasn't sure. The concept of robots making music is an interesting one so I thought that's what you were shooting for.

No, but to make up for my fluff, I'll posit this. While a song played by a robot, composed by a human, is still music (functionally the same as playing a CD)... is a song played by a robot by an algorithm still music? And who's music is it?
 

sprinkles

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No, but to make up for my fluff, I'll posit this. While a song played by a robot, composed by a human, is still music (functionally the same as playing a CD)... is a song played by a robot by an algorithm still music? And who's music is it?

If it's not a self aware machine, I'd call it zombie music.

I take this from the concept of the philosophical zombie - indistinguishable from a normal human but lacks qualia. Superficially human but spiritually dead, effectively.
 

sprinkles

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Also it's ironic that some metal bands know more about music than most people. They just CHOOSE to sound the way they do.

Take this for example:

Now compare it to this

You think they don't know how to make music?

Or how about this

vs this
 

Qlip

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[MENTION=16071]sprinkles[/MENTION] Yeah, metal fans can be some of the most closed minded, musically... which does stand in contrast to almost any musician who cares enough to be good.
 

sprinkles

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[MENTION=16071]sprinkles[/MENTION] Yeah, metal fans can be some of the most closed minded, musically... which does stand in contrast to almost any musician who cares enough to be good.

Yeah. I think some groups are shocked by the fans. They aren't about hating on stuff.

But then again some groups have assholes too.
 

_eric_

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Just because any particular type of music doesn't sound good to you does not invalidate it as being art. Saying that it's just a bunch of worthless random talentless chaotic noise that nobody who has any semblance of a brain should ever enjoy is a knee-jerk reaction to being incapable of looking beyond the surface of what you do not personally enjoy in order to see all of the effort and talent that goes into composing and playing it. All art is subjective, especially so the enjoyment of art, so to push upon it any sort of haughty 'objective' judgement is just plain idiotic and immature. Not everyone is supposed to be exactly like you and have the same mindset as you. Music that does not fit inside your nice little narrow-mindedly definitive box is not worthless. There is an awful lot of music out there that I can't stand at all, but I am not so stupid as to go around claiming it isn't music just because I don't like it.
 

chatoyer

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Haha sorry, I wasn't sure. The concept of robots making music is an interesting one so I thought that's what you were shooting for.

There's no robot I've heard that sounds as great as Klaus Meine (Scorpions)!! I'm waiting for that....
 
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