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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I guess for me the TKs had no "purpose" except /insert powerful bad guy. I know they were introduced at the beginning, but you don't know what they are till later. They seemed unnecessary in the story like if he had another reason for accumulating power like some technology or just a lot of hired muscle it would have been more realistic. What I liked about 12 monkeys more was Willis going forward with his mission even though he thought he was insane and knew he would lose everything in the end
    I didn't get the impression he was aware he would "lose everything" until maybe the last two minutes of the movie, and at that point, he did not feel like a hero but like a victim. In 12 Monkeys thinking, time was set and could not be changed, regardless; once that is understood, the story becomes a tragedy, where you are merely a pawn of the system and the only heroic action is to try to embrace one's fate stoicly and with resolution and play the part you were assigned with a kind of nobility, to redeem what you can. (This theme seems to show up in Gilliam's work; Brazil was another one where the hero is faced with no real options for his future, and ekes out the only kind of victory he can.)

    Time travel was different in Looper, where it was obvious you could change time (which is another reason why it was such a big deal with an Oldie went back and wasn't wiped); and in this case, Young Joe had a wide variety of future options left to him that would have greatly benfitted himself directly even if they cost other people dearly, and the heroism came in choosing the option he did.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    See, I didn't see it as quite so fatalistic oddly. I think it was more of an oedipus/cassandra type thing where people took actions to avoid their fate which led them to it, but yeah it could be interpreted both ways I guess. To me, it was more of a story of heroism where he was willing to self-sacrifice for love much like a Dido whereas in Looper I got the sense of his just being tired and wanting it to end while also doing it for the greater good. I do agree that the relationship he had with the child which in retrospect with what you know about how the kid grew up to rescue him as a teen was a nice bit of hope in difficult and unpredictable circumstances where they both are willing to take the risk to be kind in spite of the fact that they know that it is probably going to end up in them being hunted to death.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I do agree that the relationship he had with the child which in retrospect with what you know about how the kid grew up to rescue him as a teen was a nice bit of hope in difficult and unpredictable circumstances where they both are willing to take the risk to be kind in spite of the fact that they know that it is probably going to end up in them being hunted to death.
    I'm a little confused on that point. The Rainmaker didn't save him as a teen. The Rainmaker as an adult never appears in the story, and he is very new to the scene in the future in which he is referenced -- he takes over the syndicate in the future, in about a six-month period, and then starts wiping out the old loopers to clean house.

    The Jeff Daniels character back in Young Joe's time period is who took him in and "put a gun in his hand."

    So I'm not sure what you are talking about with this point, exactly...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I thought Jeff Daniels was adult rainmaker?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I thought Jeff Daniels was adult rainmaker?
    Uh.... no. He was a guy from the future who chose to come back and run the looper business for the Syndicate.

    No one knew who the Rainmaker was, as an adult. But Old Joe got his identifying info for his birth, so he was bound and determined to find the three kids born on that day and time/location.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    my bad. would have been more "affectively cohesive" and thus a better storyline so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I also arrived a few minutes late
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    my bad. would have been more "affectively cohesive" and thus a better storyline so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I also arrived a few minutes late
    I don't think it would have made for a better storyline at all. It would have made no sense in terms of the world setting. Why would he go back in time? he was the guy in charge. He can't direct things in the future, and he would run the rest of screwing up his own timeline. And sometimes writers make things too tight and minimalist and it all seems very far-fetched. it was far more realistic as done.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think it would have made for a better storyline at all. It would have made no sense in terms of the world setting. Why would he go back in time? he was the guy in charge. He can't direct things in the future, and he would run the rest of screwing up his own timeline. And sometimes writers make things too tight and minimalist and it all seems very far-fetched. it was far more realistic as done.
    control the past control the future sort of thing. I find too many "holes" to lack cohesion and it seems sloppy. I like a few loose ends as well, or I agree it seems not realistic.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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