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Why do people adopt Rap/R&B/Hip-Hop Culture?

Zarathustra

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There's an entire large segment of hip hop (underground/indie) that is probably more popular among suburban white kids (like myself) than black urban kids, and isn't about "being poor in a ghetto, being black, being gangster, going to prison, shooting cops, and murdering people", and, frankly, is not only much better than, but is in many ways directly opposed to the crap you seem to be referring to.


(its popularity does seem to be increasing among black youths, though, with new crossover acts like Odd Future)



Frankly, with the quality of the music in that subgenre, it's odd to me how anyone could not be drawn to it.

Putting that aside for the moment, though, I fancy myself a bit of a hip hop historian, so let me walk you through exactly how it was that White America came to be sold on hip hop...

First (and you may be too young to have experienced this), white kids my age (children of the 80s [young Gen Xers, old Millennials]) were brought into the hip hop fold when we were kids through total pop hop (garbage) that was decidedly not gangster, like MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. The first album I ever bought (on cassette, mind you) was Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em (my favorite song was "Pray", for those in the Hammer know *wink* *hammer dance*):


...and I would be lying if were to say that I did not at one time think Vanilla Ice was cool:


Then, moving on from the late 80s into the 90s, there was the undeniably strong Fresh Prince effect:


I mean, Will Smith was one of the hip hop stars of the 80s, and with this show he basically took over America. He presented a face so non-threatening and enjoyable that even grandmothers could say they really liked a rapper.

Moving on, growing up in California, when I was in middle and high school, the whole West Coast vs. East Coast feud drew people in as well. Regardless of what race or socioeconomic status you were, this was about geography! All of a sudden, you and the gangsters on your side of the country were on the same side against the gangsters on the other side of the country. Race didn't matter.


Then add in Eminem blowing up when I was, I dunno, a freshman in high school, as well as pop-heavy hip hop acts like Will Smith, or Run DMC collaborating with Aerosmith, other white hip hop acts like The Beastie Boys, or Naughty by Nature, and even other white acts that blended rock and hip hop, like *trying to remember these first douchebags' names* *can't remember it* whatever that band with Fred Durst was called and Linkin Park (who were blowing up, respectively, in the middle and end of my high school years), I mean, it's really not that difficult to see how white people got into hip hop. I mean, shit, the industry sure as shit wanted them to -- there's a shit ton of disposable income within that demographic -- and you can't tell me acts like Nelly, or even Dr. Dre's 'Chronic 2001', weren't aimed directly at suburban white kids. And if you could like Dre, why couldn't you like NWA, Eazy E, Ice Cube, Westside Connection, Snoop Dogg, 2Pac, and all kinds of other acts. I mean, shiit, I'm pretty sure my grandma could get down with a slick Nate Dogg hook. Who couldn't?


And that's mostly just West Coast shit.

(Oh, which reminds me... as the voice says at the beginning of the video: "He who controls the dance floor, controls the People." I mean, let's be real, 90s hip hop is fun as hell to dance to.)


Then there was East Coast shit, and, I mean, how fucking gangster, really, were Ma$e and Puff Daddy? Shit, Puff probably grew up wealthier than I did. I remember this shit coming out early when I was in high school, and there was nobody on the planet who didn't like this song. So now you've thrown Biggie into the mix, and he's more thug than Jay-Z ever was, so now you've got pretty much most of the mainstream hip hop establishment in bed with White America:


Then you've got weird ass acts like Wu Tang Clan, which is comprised solely of black dudes, but whose name (as well as many thematic elements in their music) is basically one giant shout-out to Asian/Japanese culture, and whose lyrics/songs, while gangster in a sense, were also so out there and weird that they managed to cross over (interestingly/oddly) all the way into a white skaterpunk demographic:



Another act who kinda fit that weird hop style, but catered to more mainstream tastes was Busta Rhymes, who, despite his relative unimportance and obscurity now, was actually a pretty major influence in pulling the suburban white kid into the hip hop scene:


Which reminds me (seeing as how he had a hit with Janet Jackson somewhere around my sophomore/junior year), that, honestly, Michael Jackson was a pretty big influence on white kids being open to getting into hip hop. As ridiculous as it may seem now, I remember as a kid having very strong post-racial views in no small part because of Michael Jackson, and, well, it's not hard to see how his stuff was not only aimed directly at white suburban kids (not exclusively, of course -- it was intended for everyone), but it was very specifically intended to stir post-racial views in the youth.


So, I mean, White America was well-lubed for the mass influx of hip hop that was to come in the 90s.

Then related genres, like R&B, kept the lube going, with acts like Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, TLC, et al.


I mean, I specifically remember being in 5th or 6th grade, and wanting to rail the fuck out of Chili.

Add in R&B/hip-hop crossover acts like The Fugees and Outkast...



...and, I mean, how many more steps must one take to be willing to open up to hip hop?

Add on top of this the fact that white kids my age grew up idolizing sports heroes like Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan, Bo Jackson and Ken Griffey, Jr, and, I mean, when you want to grow up and "Be Like Mike", how much more does it take for you to want to "Be Like Pac"?

I could go on about the kind of hip hop I got into after the mainstream stuff started to suck, but, as for now, the defense rests.
 

Such Irony

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This is something I don't think I am capable of understanding. Why would rich white people living in suburban homes find music that talks about being poor in a ghetto, being black, being gangster, going to prison, shooting cops, and murdering people something that they feel they can identify with?

I kind of get how it's sort of a social thing. Maybe people use it for entertainment purposes then and nothing else, like for clubs and partying and stuff. And I get how it has a kind of poetry to it. But it's weird that people would identify with something that is almost opposite to what they represent themselves in society.

Explains to mez, please.

Maybe they just listen to it for the beat and don't care much about the lyrics?
 

Little_Sticks

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What it sounds like though is you're trying to argue that it's ridiculous for rich white people to listen to any kind of rap, hip-hop, or R&B. Based on your admission that you don't know anything about rap then I'd wager you should listen to some of it before you make judgments on who should and should not listen to it.

Dude, I obviously offended you. :D Anyway, it's interesting that you thought this is the case. I'm not heavy into the music, but I do like some of it. I was just reflecting on some people I've been around that have listened to the kind of rap I was talking about and they didn't see it in any way strange. It made me uncomfortable/weird to identify with it by being around them (friends or whatever), is all.

So perhaps the reason that people who can't relate to it enjoy it is because they like how it sounds.

Maybe they just listen to it for the beat and don't care much about the lyrics?

Yeah, maybe. To be honest, I find most of it seems kind of boring to listen to. The instrumental variation isn't there much (except what KDude posted, which I like a lot) and then it all depends on the voice/lyrics/style of the rapper. I wonder if such people don't have an eclectic collection of music that they've been exposed to to get bored from it. I don't know.


Yeah, dude, the first video is sort of what I'm talking about. It's almost like its cult music or something.

I don't get that from the second one.

what i don't understand with myself is that i like some pretty misogynistic rap songs and if people were talking like that to me in person i would get pissed off about it but somehow in song form i just think it's entertaining.

That could be it. Maybe people don't take it as seriously as the music portrays itself, so it doesn't seem weird to identify with.

[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION]
I actually liked Eminem and some of those songs you've posted. But Wu-Tang Clan and Atmosphere and 'Bow Down'; man, that stuff is just bizarre to me. I guess it's what chana said, it's not taken that seriously and maybe then it's just purely entertainment.
 

Burger King

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My guess is because it's exotic with some element of danger. Allows them to vent their teenage angst in an otherwise boring suburb that lacks diversity.

You should give em some credit though, rap/hip-hop culture that is. It's not all hardcore tough-guy front. Some speak about universal struggles. Basically what [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] said.

 

Thalassa

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It's a sort of fantasy world. Some people like 19th century literature, some people like cowboy Westerns, other people enjoy imagining that Nazi Germany was the pinnacle of human civilization, and then there are these folks who romanticize being a gangsta.

It's never appealed to me, though I do like some of the work of Tupac and Eminem (primarily) it's because I genuinely enjoy their work as musical artists, I don't prescribe to the lifestyle, aesthetic, or whatever even remotely.

Maybe it seems exciting to some people?
 

sprinkles

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It's a sort of fantasy world. Some people like 19th century literature, some people like cowboy Westerns, other people enjoy imagining that Nazi Germany was the pinnacle of human civilization, and then there are these folks who romanticize being a gangsta.

It's never appealed to me, though I do like some of the work of Tupac and Eminem (primarily) it's because I genuinely enjoy their work as musical artists, I don't prescribe to the lifestyle, aesthetic, or whatever even remotely.

Maybe it seems exciting to some people?

I kind of agree with this.

I grew up in the area shown in Eminem's movie 8 mile and actually know where some of the places shown in it are located, so I identify with it a bit since I grew up with that sort of thing. I also grew out of it though.

I'd probably continue to be into it if there were more stuff like this:

 

The Ü™

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I'm more curious as to why people adopt emo/screamo culture? I could understand why people would idolize being tough, but why idolize weakness and suicidal behavior?
 

Lark

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This is something I don't think I am capable of understanding. Why would rich white people living in suburban homes find music that talks about being poor in a ghetto, being black, being gangster, going to prison, shooting cops, and murdering people something that they feel they can identify with?

I kind of get how it's sort of a social thing. Maybe people use it for entertainment purposes then and nothing else, like for clubs and partying and stuff. And I get how it has a kind of poetry to it. But it's weird that people would identify with something that is almost opposite to what they represent themselves in society.

Explains to mez, please.

I never identified with Eminem or the ilk if that's whats being discussed here, I think its ill, celebrates being unable to control your moods or being angry and out of control, there's a vague sense of grievance too. Far too much of it appears to be a rant about his personal relationships or what he thinks people think about him and how they are all wrong and he doesnt care. Music for the maturationally challenged.

Some gangster rap is cool to listen to, although I bet the ones I do listen too are too mainstream to be described as a cultural statement, like fifty cent's In The Club, I dont really like that guy as an artist, despite the fact people repeatedly say that he's a nice guy and very amenable and approachable he does far too good an impression of a hard case thug during ANY interview I've seen of him. Also, I think that he's a good example of a bad one hit wonder phenomenon. I'd say that I like cypress hill or other examples but I dont know if its gangster rap so much as metal rap, I like RATM too and think that they are different culturally from a lot of the more shameless hip hop or gangster scenes.

I like some tunes from Ice T, Ice Cube, Snoop Dogg, although I dont give all the lyrics that much credience, I really do think that some of Ice Cube's tunes were deliberate attempts to freak out the elements who he thought he was "worrying" with his success and as a consequence I guess there's an irony value to it.

Although I dont think I know properly what the scene is we're talking about, one of casual violence and aggression, broken or flat affect, contradictory views of wealth ranging from wanting it, being unashamed about it but then claiming that material distance from your origins or beginnings will result in cultural distance and the need to testify to "keeping it real" or living as you once did and not being assimilated culturally or normatively into respectability.

I dont like any of those things, maybe there's a class dimension to this, I dont like heavy identification with any social class, there is snobbery and there is inverse or reverse snobbery too, both have their own sorts of calling cards which are bitter, resentful, all of that kind of ill shit.
 

Lark

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I'm more curious as to why people adopt emo/screamo culture? I could understand why people would idolize being tough, but why idolize weakness and suicidal behavior?

I dont know if it is about being tough, it is about hardening your heart and flat or broken affect, I idealised that at a time in my teens and it was about becoming the very thing I feared and ego-defence, it was all bad. I only really was able to properly analyse it within the last three to five years because I hadnt the knowledge really to know it and call it what it was. Its part of the reason I believe that people can change because I know how I have done in the past, how it has been context and environmentally specific.

I think that the emo/screamo culture is something similar too, although the opposite extreme, one is about repression of affect and emotion, the other is about absurd, and absurdly constant, expression of the same.

Both are a pretty awful response to managing your emotions and anticipations of response to the same, it doesnt surprise me that when you take it out of class or status contexts or those in which violence can be passe that its mainly young people/people growing up who're into these scenes.
 

Swivelinglight

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Dude, I obviously offended you. :D .

If you knew me you'd know that this is far from the case.


As for the first video "HTFU".

You say it sounds cultish and the fact is the creators made it that way to illustrate SATIRE.

Do you know who those people in the video are?

They're game developers, Nerds. They're the game developers for the MMO, Eve Online.

I will let you connect the dots on your own from there.
 

Wolfie

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People who are safe in their little cocoons of entitlement like to imagine that they are as tough as anyone exposed to the grimmest of stressors.

What she said.

I think with the expansion of communication, we have access to a lot of different stuff. I have noticed that among white youth especially there is a co-opting of different cultural and social aspects, usually to appear different, unique or experienced. There is a rather large hipster movement in my town, young rich kids running around the ghetto playing poor, like it's a fun game. And it's like the worst thing in the world to remind them that they're actually privileged. That's why they tend to not actually hang out with poor people, just other rich kids pretending to be poor. I just have a hard time respecting a lot of my piers for that reason in particular.
 

Thalassa

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What she said.

I think with the expansion of communication, we have access to a lot of different stuff. I have noticed that among white youth especially there is a co-opting of different cultural and social aspects, usually to appear different, unique or experienced. There is a rather large hipster movement in my town, young rich kids running around the ghetto playing poor, like it's a fun game. And it's like the worst thing in the world to remind them that they're actually privileged. That's why they tend to not actually hang out with poor people, just other rich kids pretending to be poor. I just have a hard time respecting a lot of my piers for that reason in particular.

That's a big part of why it doesn't appeal to me. It glorifies a lifestyle that some people were forced into because of dire situational urban poverty, and it seems like ...um...a shitty goal in life, to emulate people who are impoverished and desperate who must turn to violence and crime in order to survive.

Not only that, but a lot of times with young white men in particular it comes across as obnoxious and stupid, like all they really need a good slap across the face, a belt, and a full-time job.

I think glorifying the gangsta rap culture in particular (as opposed to just hip hop) is detrimental to society, and it should be examined as a social ill that should be changed, like um we should do something about this, as opposed as to yeah we should go pretend to be like these people (but avoid them IRL because that would be too scary or depressing).

It's been going on as far as I can tell since the 90's, and my intellectual understanding of it has increased, but my emotional or aesthetic understanding of it still hovers in the range of about zero.
 

Thalassa

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My guess is because it's exotic with some element of danger. Allows them to vent their teenage angst in an otherwise boring suburb that lacks diversity.

You should give em some credit though, rap/hip-hop culture that is. It's not all hardcore tough-guy front. Some speak about universal struggles. Basically what [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] said.


The problem of course being is that as a result of "release of teenaged angst" there's now a trend toward irresponsible or impulsive gun use and treating young women like un-paid prostitutes.

Gangsta culture should not be made in anyone's mind as synonymous with "being black" because it's based in a very particular urban struggle, not with African-Americans in general.

So I don't see anything epically wonderfully multi-cultural about this, it's a bunch of shit, if you want to embrace African-American culture, go listen to soul, jazz, hip hop, or rap that isn't about killing people and raping women.

The reason why it irritates me is because it's caused a massive social impact on young people, and not in a healthy way, and I honestly don't think it does a goddamn thing to portray African Americans in a positive light, if anything it makes stereotypes worse.

With most young white men who emulate it, yes it is a "tough guy front" and not based in reality at all, which is why it's so obnoxious and absurd - it's claiming status or power with nothing to back it up, because in truth you're a little whiner who still lives with your mom and plays X Box all day, and this one time in a public place you decided to shoot off a gun for no apparent reason to be cool.

Some people say it's because "white culture" has become too "feminized" and these boys are looking for something masculine to identify with, but I have a hard time believing this is true, as all black people don't act this way, either.
 

greenfairy

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I'm more curious as to why people adopt emo/screamo culture? I could understand why people would idolize being tough, but why idolize weakness and suicidal behavior?

This I do not relate to at all. I think when you're young and want to fit in, and filled with complex emotions you want to express those passionately and find other people who do (thus making you and your emotions "cool").

And it's a lot easier to glorify misery and anger than to actually psychologically process it in healthy ways, and change yourself and your life. Laziness. In a young person excusable, but in older people annoying.
 

Vasilisa

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Manhood in a Bottle?

I liked this documentary, it is several years old now, though

[video=google;-2020029531334253002]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2020029531334253002[/video]

The bit specifically about the corporatization of gangsta rap is at 40:05

I have noticed that among white youth especially there is a co-opting of different cultural and social aspects, usually to appear different, unique or experienced. There is a rather large hipster movement in my town, young rich kids running around the ghetto playing poor, like it's a fun game. And it's like the worst thing in the world to remind them that they're actually privileged. That's why they tend to not actually hang out with poor people, just other rich kids pretending to be poor. I just have a hard time respecting a lot of my piers for that reason in particular.

Does that come from a mindset that the wealth that they come from is illegitimate? Could that be what compels hollow gestures?
 

greenfairy

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I love hip hop, rap, R&B, jazz, and some soul. I especially like the typical offensive popular stuff on the radio. I have kind of a philosophical idea about it. Where to start?

First, [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION], yes I agree with all that. I'm a child of the 90's (27) as well. (Ah, the nostalgia...) And I thought you were a robot INTJ. You get like 1000 cool points. :) [MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION], I think you have a lot of good things to say about it, but I think the truth has multiple sides.

I think there are a lot of universal sentiments expressed in rap and hip hop. Most of it is in fact about being tough, but also about being yourself. African Americans in particular have had to deal with being an oppressed race historically, so that permeates the culture. While glorifying the ghetto is definitely counter productive, developing an assertive attitude is healthy. This is something anyone can benefit from. Most of the music I think, is more about the attitude than bragging about violent actions. Any person, particularly young people who aren't super rich, can identify with feeling oppressed in some way. Since there isn't really any law in these urban areas, it's more of a primal environment. Most white people have repressed their rebellious and aggressive sides, and don't have healthy outlets for it. We need to get in touch with this primal part of ourselves, and face our dark sides. We need to accept our anger and positively express it. Music is a good way to do that. Imagining you are in a situation in which you might be violent allows you to develop your assertive side; once you have expressed it all in your imagination, you can then bring in your good judgment and consciously act rather than react. You might never choose to be violent. But saying that you could be under the right circumstances is empowering. I find gangsta type rap (like DMX and Lil Wayne) is good for me this way. It's real. I'm not a gansta by any stretch of the imagination, but I can and do have as much of an attitude as anyone else.

Second, rap is assertive in that it promotes being yourself and not worrying about the haters. Most people can identify with this. Listening to it has helped me have more confidence and not care if people judge me or not.

Third, all African American music to me seems to be characterized by passion. Passion, especially in music, is very healing to me. It is the way I express my emotions. Sexual energy in music goes to my core and gets out all the deep layers of complex emotion I would otherwise never be aware of, much less consciously express. Paradoxically, I find passion to be balancing. I love music with good beats and flow. Once again, it goes to our primal nature- if you go back into human history far enough, all music was pretty much the same, and based around drumming and chanting (kind of like hip hop). Drumming and rhythm accesses our unconscious mind in unique and deep ways, and is used to induce spiritual trance like states. I know music does this for me.
 

greenfairy

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I wanna roll with the gangsters, but they all know I'm white and nerdy...

 

UniqueMixture

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What she said.

I think with the expansion of communication, we have access to a lot of different stuff. I have noticed that among white youth especially there is a co-opting of different cultural and social aspects, usually to appear different, unique or experienced. There is a rather large hipster movement in my town, young rich kids running around the ghetto playing poor, like it's a fun game. And it's like the worst thing in the world to remind them that they're actually privileged. That's why they tend to not actually hang out with poor people, just other rich kids pretending to be poor. I just have a hard time respecting a lot of my piers for that reason in particular.


Your piers

170px-Southend_Pier.jpg
 
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