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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I haven't finished watching it yet. Yes I know who the legendary Icarus is. Yes I know the goal of the Icarus I and II is to save the Earth. Yes I know Pinbacker, on the macro level, went crazy and decided to let nature take its course instead of delivering the payload. Yes I know that the lack of O2 on the Icarus II is one of the deciding factors on who gets to live or die.

    There is also the similarity with Prometheus where obviously the wrong crews were chosen for the mission. It's really tropish for sci-fi movies like Sunshine to make use of superficial metaphors, but Prometheus took the metaphors to a much deeper level.
    You sure cracked that puzzle.
    Next.

    Yawn.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    You sure cracked that puzzle.
    Next.

    Yawn.
    I also know that in the Pinbacker recording made 6.5 years before Icarus II, he called his spaceship the
    Icarus I.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I agreed that the script was a mess, remember? Then I stated that, despite the messy story, Prometheus has led to more discussion than Sunshine. But every time I say this you want to stop talking to me.
    Actually, you're confusing the hell out of me -- fighting me tooth and nail with what I consider to be spurious discussion tactics and proclaiming how great Prometheus is, then turning around in your posts this afternoon and arguing the other side with Cascade and ZPowers.

    I have no clue what you actually believe anymore, it's almost like you're just playing extreme devil's advocate. I don't even know how to position myself in this discussion anymore.

    EDIT: Any time I leave a discussion, it's because I perceive that further discussion will be useless unless something changes. I don't like to waste my time or energy beating my head against the wall. I'm only responding now because you shifted in some way and I don't understand it, but it does mean maybe there's a possibility for a change in the discussion as well.

    Yes. And why should it? What's wrong with being forced to think instead of being spoon-fed answers?
    Maybe I need to explain this differently.

    I look at a work of art is stand-alone. It has to be self-explanatory, if it is good. Maybe people will resonate in different ways with it, but this is a very logical foundation: If the work of art is only good depending on who is listening to it, then it's not the work of art that is good but the listener, and if the work of art is consistently good regardless of the audience, then it is the work that is excellent in its own right.

    In that light, I don't think Prometheus is a great movie, as the positives of the experience are all generated by the viewer -- it's whatever the viewer is using the movie as a vehicle for, but the movie itself doesn't actually generate any of that, it's all the viewer using the movie to simply explore things they would have already explored within themselves. Again, the goodness is NOT within the movie itself. Everything you've been talking about, I just feel is you 'projecting yourself' onto the movie to make it mean what you want it to mean.

    I also feel that it is not self-explanatory; if the movie has to be explained in long treatises by guys arguing over what it means and doesn't explain anything within itself, then it is not a coherent narrative on its own two feet. Compare it to riddles: When you hear the answer to a riddle, you expect an a-ha moment, where the paradigm becomes clear and it all makes sense and you just needed to get in the right frame of mind; but if what you get is some elaborate answer that you could have never figured out on your own by getting in the right frame of mind, then it means the truth of the riddle was not coherent or accessible regardless of how you positioned yourself. In other words, the riddle is a "cheat."

    I admire art that is coherent within its own rights, no matter who is observing it, and generates the responses to it, and contains its own definition in a way that can be discovered within itself. (or, ha ha, "I admire its purity. [art that is] A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. ")

    I hope this makes more sense.

    With two androids traveling to the alien home planet, perhaps they will have a chance to find the answers.
    Again, I think I said above that the 'sequel' if one is made is what will determine whether the first movie was part of a cohesive whole or simply a cosmic joke.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I also know that in the Pinbacker recording made 6.5 years before Icarus II, he called his spaceship the
    Icarus I.
    Hey, did you see the part with the sun?
    ...Pretty big.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    Hey, did you see the part with the sun?
    ...Pretty big.
    Damn. I missed that! I need more of an eye for detail!
    (I think it was bright too, but I'm not sure! egads!)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
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    No, I'm pretty sure you're imagining things.
    Since when has the Sun been bright?

    Girl--you must be living on the moon.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, you're confusing the hell out of me -- fighting me tooth and nail with what I consider to be spurious discussion tactics and proclaiming how great Prometheus is, then turning around in your posts this afternoon and arguing the other side with Cascade and ZPowers.
    I never once said anything about Prometheus being great. I could say that it has been a "great" source of debate, and rightly so, especially in comparison to Sunshine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I have no clue what you actually believe anymore, it's almost like you're just playing extreme devil's advocate. I don't even know how to position myself in this discussion anymore.
    It doesn't sound like you've been reading my comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    EDIT: Any time I leave a discussion, it's because I perceive that further discussion will be useless unless something changes. I don't like to waste my time or energy beating my head against the wall. I'm only responding now because you shifted in some way and I don't understand it, but it does mean maybe there's a possibility for a change in the discussion as well.

    Maybe I need to explain this differently.

    I look at a work of art is stand-alone. It has to be self-explanatory, if it is good. Maybe people will resonate in different ways with it, but this is a very logical foundation: If the work of art is only good depending on who is listening to it, then it's not the work of art that is good but the listener, and if the work of art is consistently good regardless of the audience, then it is the work that is excellent in its own right.

    In that light, I don't think Prometheus is a great movie, as the positives of the experience are all generated by the viewer -- it's whatever the viewer is using the movie as a vehicle for, but the movie itself doesn't actually generate any of that, it's all the viewer using the movie to simply explore things they would have already explored within themselves. Again, the goodness is NOT within the movie itself. Everything you've been talking about, I just feel is you 'projecting yourself' onto the movie to make it mean what you want it to mean.
    There's the mistake. You have confused Prometheus with an art film. It's a philosophical movie, not an art film.

    An art film makes a statement about art, just as any other art form makes the same statement. An artwork does not just depict something, it also makes an implicit statement about the nature of art itself. That's how you should distinguish the two kinds of movies, just as for example Avengers should not be considered an art film because it is simply entertainment for its own sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I also feel that it is not self-explanatory; if the movie has to be explained in long treatises by guys arguing over what it means and doesn't explain anything within itself, then it is not a coherent narrative on its own two feet.
    Give this series a chance. It's only one movie and its obviously intended for at least one sequel. You sound like the online reviewer who complained that Batman "didn't learn anything" in the latest installment. So I sent him a facebook message saying that there's still a chance for Batman to "learn something" in the next movie. Maybe it wasn't time for Batman to "learn something" in that movie, maybe that's for the next movie.

    Ridley couldn't have made it more obvious that Prometheus was intended to be a two-parter, at least, if not three or more. That's why your complaint is unfounded, just as the Batman reviewer's complaint was unfounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Compare it to riddles: When you hear the answer to a riddle, you expect an a-ha moment, where the paradigm becomes clear and it all makes sense and you just needed to get in the right frame of mind; but if what you get is some elaborate answer that you could have never figured out on your own by getting in the right frame of mind, then it means the truth of the riddle was not coherent or accessible regardless of how you positioned yourself. In other words, the riddle is a "cheat."
    People are already cheating by searching for answers that are forthcoming. You treat Prometheus like the classic black-and-white B sci-fi movie which ends with a giant ? mark. I think The Blob ended that way. This isn't like The Blob, not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I admire art that is coherent within its own rights, no matter who is observing it, and generates the responses to it, and contains its own definition in a way that can be discovered within itself.

    I hope this makes more sense.
    Yes, but objectively speaking, art is art, and Prometheus is not art.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again, I think I said above that the 'sequel' if one is made is what will determine whether the first movie was part of a cohesive whole or simply a cosmic joke.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    Hey, did you see the part with the sun?
    ...Pretty big.
    I do see that you can't part with your misconceptions about the Sensory nature of the world. All is not as obvious as it appears. There was no need for Pinbacker to mention an Icarus ONE years before there was an Icarus TWO.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I do see that you can't part with your misconceptions about the Sensory nature of the world. All is not as obvious as it appears. There was no need for Pinbacker to mention an Icarus ONE years before there was an Icarus TWO.
    There was no reason the crew used a spaceship to get to the sun.
    They should have placed a dude on a kite with some very long string.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    There was no reason the crew used a spaceship to get to the sun.
    They should have placed a dude on a kite with some very long string.
    You didn't say anything about wings of wax.

    Do you even know what an Icarus is?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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