"Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra."

[Mal12345]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

"Darmok" is the 102nd episode of the science fiction television series Star Trek: The Next Generation. The second episode of the fifth season..." Picard finally begins to understand the way the other race communicates when he recites one of the metaphors and sees the meaning underneath it."

Sorry, ain't buying the bullshit. A civilization that communicates in metaphorical language would not get off the ground, much less their home planet.

 

[Totenkindly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

"Darmok" is the 102nd episode of the science fiction television series Star Trek: The Next Generation. The second episode of the fifth season..." Picard finally begins to understand the way the other race communicates when he recites one of the metaphors and sees the meaning underneath it."

Sorry, ain't buying the bullshit. A civilization that communicates in metaphorical language would not get off the ground, much less their home planet.

Good thing it was just Paul Winfield in an alien suit.


.. but srsly, yes. If there is no specificity to their language, I'm not sure how technology or any other social progress could be effected.

 

[rav3n]

Never had relationships with INTPs before? Watching that episode not too long ago, felt like home!

 

[Mal12345]

Never had relationships with INTPs before? Watching that episode not too long ago, felt like home!

Maybe, but if we made little smiley faces out of 0s and stick figures out of 1s like feelers do, the computer age never would have gotten off the ground.

 

[Qlip]

Lol. I thought that ep was B.S. also. If a long phrase is continually and consistently used to reference an idea, it's a word not (and?) a metaphor. The translators would be fine with it. And the way language tends to work, that phrase would be shortened through time.

 

[Redbone]

Never had relationships with INTPs before? Watching that episode not too long ago, felt like home!

Um yeah...it can be like that.

I loved that episode and went around quoting bits and pieces of it.

 

[Mal12345]

Lol. I thought that ep was B.S. also. If a long phrase is continually and consistently used to reference an idea, it's a word not (and?) a metaphor. The translators would be fine with it. And the way language tends to work, that phrase would be shortened through time.

It's supposed to represent mythical language. American Indians spoke like this. For example, if someone goes to the chief with a problem, he might say something like, "You need to go to the place of the five rivers." But that's not to be taken literally, it's a reference to a myth designed to express a solution to his particular problem.

 

[Mal12345]

Um yeah...it can be like that.

I loved that episode and went around quoting bits and pieces of it.

I'm guessing you were under the age of 12.

 

[Qlip]

It's supposed to represent mythical language. American Indians spoke like this. For example, if someone goes to the chief with a problem, he might say something like, "You need to go to the place of the five rivers." But that's not to be taken literally, it's a reference to a myth designed to express a solution to his particular problem.

I suppose if the 'myth' referred to was sufficiently multi-utilitarian, I could see how this could become enigmatic to outsiders. But still.. "You need to go to the place of five rivers.", is not dramatically different than "You need to retrace your steps.", except it might take longer for a computer to parse. They're just sounds representing an idea. I thought the whole scenario was represented as revolutionary, when I don't see that it is.

 

[rav3n]

Maybe, but if we made little smiley faces out of 0s and stick figures out of 1s like feelers do, the computer age never would have gotten off the ground.

Why not? Symbiosis of asymmetry.

Um yeah...it can be like that.

I loved that episode and went around quoting bits and pieces of it.

Adored it too. *takes deep breath* I confess to having all the ST series except the last one.

 

[Mal12345]

I suppose if the 'myth' referred to was sufficiently multi-utilitarian, I could see how this could become enigmatic to outsiders. But still.. "You need to go to the place of five rivers.", is not dramatically different than "You need to retrace your steps.", except it might take longer for a computer to parse. They're just sounds representing an idea. I thought the whole scenario was represented as revolutionary, when I don't see that it is.

Assuming that's what it means. But what if it was an obscure reference to a myth in which two tribes settled their differences in a pow-wow at such a meeting-place?

 

[Qlip]

Assuming that's what it means. But what if it was an obscure reference to a myth in which two tribes settled their differences in a pow-wow at such a meeting-place?

The computer would be confused because there is a lot of noise in that data. Also, it's an inefficient way to communicate because of the time it takes. It's still a sound = idea framework.

If there was a language like that, and you had to express the fact that you're thirsty.. those sound phrases are just synonyms:

"Spack blah" = I'm thirsty
"Argle bargle ne shlomo da jubee a" = "I'm thirsty"

And if there was no "Spack blah", they'd just get tired and say "Argbarjuba" instead of saying that long second phrase.

 

[Mal12345]

The computer would be confused because there is a lot of noise in that data. Also, it's an inefficient way to communicate because of the time it takes. It's still a sound = idea framework.

If there was a language like that, and you had to express the fact that you're thirsty.. those sound phrases are just synonyms:

"Spack blah" = I'm thirsty
"Argle bargle ne shlomo da jubee a" = "I'm thirsty"

And if there was no "Spack blah", they'd just get tired and say "Argbarjuba" instead of saying that long second phrase.

That won't work in the case that "Argbarjuba" appears in more than one myth.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Metaphors only convey meaning effectively if both people are familiar with the original story/circumstance. That episode bothered me because it supposed it was possible for a language to be so completely enmeshed in metaphor that one party needing some literal background was a foreign concept- which presupposes that the exchange of literal meaning is not ever necessary. But I can’t imagine how meaning could be conveyed without literal language giving a foundation from which metaphors get their meaning. I can imagine entering into sphere of interaction using only metaphor once I had a solid foundation of language and meaning in place- but learning to communicate through metaphor would be too confusing, imo.

Also: if you taught someone the word for “eyeglasses” was “Martin’s vision”- and that’s the only way they knew to refer to eyeglasses, then “Martin’s vision” would no longer be a metaphor- it would be the direct word, in that language, for eyeglasses. Once people generally start associating a word directly with a thing- instead of associating it with a different thing and making a comparison to the thing-at-hand-- then doesn’t it stop being a metaphor? [edit:] If you look at the etymology for a lot of words, you'll find that many 'names' of things are actually sort of metaphors for what a thing originally reminded people of.....yet because we were never taught that original literal meaning of this word, it's simply the direct name of that thing to us now. A 'metaphor' needs that buffer of having a direct language in order to stay a 'metaphor'.

 

[fripping]

Sorry, ain't buying the bullshit. A civilization that communicates in metaphorical language would not get off the ground, much less their home planet.

Zinda, his face black, his eyes red!

 

[Totenkindly]

It's supposed to represent mythical language. American Indians spoke like this. For example, if someone goes to the chief with a problem, he might say something like, "You need to go to the place of the five rivers." But that's not to be taken literally, it's a reference to a myth

Kind of like, "It rained for forty days and forty nights"?

EDIT: No, I misread slightly. Similar in that both allude to cultural concepts, but a bit different...

 

[UniqueMixture]

Funny, I thought mathematics was a symbolic language.

 

[Redbone]

I'm guessing you were under the age of 12.

 

[Totenkindly]

Funny, I thought mathematics was a symbolic language.

It's not the same type of symbolic language as the type the OP is discussing. It also is unable to convey personal meaning in a way that cements a culture together.

 

[UniqueMixture]

I was pointing that out to note the deficits of "pure logic" esp when applied to sci fi programming. : ) )