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  1. #21
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I was pointing that out to note the deficits of "pure logic" esp when applied to sci fi programming. : ) )
    Good thing Spock wasn't in that episode. Or some of the Spock wannabes who appear in those other flavors of the original series.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I was pointing that out to note the deficits of "pure logic" esp when applied to sci fi programming. : ) )
    Well, a lot of stories, you're just expected to suspend logic and go with it.

    However, if someone wants to bitch about it, it's not like he's wrong. I think I had that thought too, when I first saw that episode -- "how silly, this could never feasibly happen, it's inherently paradoxical." A culture just can't develop that is ALL metaphorical, it needs some grounding in real concrete terms just to accomplish all the basic concrete tasks that are involved in a culture developing and maintaining itself.

    Some other aspects of the show might also have to be accepted on faith, but they also have the potential to one day become reality (at least, just maybe).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Unless concrete objects are seen as limits of infinite series tending to a certain value or as the resultants of overlapping probability waves or some such
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Unless concrete objects are seen as limits of infinite series tending to a certain value or as the resultants of overlapping probability waves or some such
    QM can't be done with metaphorical language. But we're humans with human mental limitations. Maybe those aliens have an entirely different brain structure than ours. Perhaps they even perceive the world differently. Space and time are only a human convention.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #25
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    This was referenced in Lenore's Personality Type: An Owner's Manual as an example of Fe at work. Something about these metaphors clicking when one realizes that they're analogous to specific interpersonal relationships.

    I typed out other things, but you guys already covered what I was going to say

    edit: Yeah, look what communicating in metaphors got us. The beginning chapters of the Bible (at least) were written hella metaphorically, but they're taken literally because we're dumbasses.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    This was referenced in Lenore's Personality Type: An Owner's Manual as an example of Fe at work. Something about these metaphors clicking when one realizes that they're analogous to specific interpersonal relationships.
    No wonder I don't read Lenore Thomson. That's not Fe at work. It is Ni - a sudden connection or realization (light bulb event) created in Picard's INTJ mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I typed out other things, but you guys already covered what I was going to say

    edit: Yeah, look what communicating in metaphors got us. The beginning chapters of the Bible (at least) were written hella metaphorically, but they're taken literally because we're dumbasses.
    At the same time this mythology was being written (by some hypothetical author named J), ancient civilizations (not some Hebrew tribes) had already formed the basis of modern reasoning, including political. There was an admixture of mythos, but reason won out in the long run. A modern variant of mythos consists of such notions as UFOlogy. The Grays and Whites are simply tribes from another planet (or dimension, etc.).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    No wonder I don't read Lenore Thomson. That's not Fe at work. It is Ni - a sudden connection or realization (light bulb event) created in Picard's INTJ mind.
    I suppose the alien was acting more in Fe, I guess, if anyone was -- referencing events of personal significance and giving them universal meaning -- whereas with Picard, yes, Ni was his doorway into recognizing what pattern he was actually looking at.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I suppose the alien was acting more in Fe, I guess, if anyone was -- referencing events of personal significance and giving them universal meaning -- whereas with Picard, yes, Ni was his doorway into recognizing what pattern he was actually looking at.
    That makes more sense.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  9. #29
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    QM can't be done with metaphorical language. But we're humans with human mental limitations. Maybe those aliens have an entirely different brain structure than ours. Perhaps they even perceive the world differently. Space and time are only a human convention.
    Right, I was saying language imitates perception and vice versa.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I suppose the alien was acting more in Fe, I guess, if anyone was -- referencing events of personal significance and giving them universal meaning -- whereas with Picard, yes, Ni was his doorway into recognizing what pattern he was actually looking at.
    Yeah, my bad--I didn't explain myself properly. The aliens' language was Fe-oriented, and the crew had to figure out the nature of their metaphors.

    Differences in communication style have some interesting effects. What has worked pretty flippin' well for one culture might not 'click' outside of that culture. In this incident, one culture has language and communication that's permeated by social hierarchy and politeness, where the other doesn't--and it leads to a failure to properly communicate urgency to those who expect more direct communication, even from 'subordinates.'

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