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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I suppose if the 'myth' referred to was sufficiently multi-utilitarian, I could see how this could become enigmatic to outsiders. But still.. "You need to go to the place of five rivers.", is not dramatically different than "You need to retrace your steps.", except it might take longer for a computer to parse. They're just sounds representing an idea. I thought the whole scenario was represented as revolutionary, when I don't see that it is.
    Assuming that's what it means. But what if it was an obscure reference to a myth in which two tribes settled their differences in a pow-wow at such a meeting-place?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #12
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Assuming that's what it means. But what if it was an obscure reference to a myth in which two tribes settled their differences in a pow-wow at such a meeting-place?
    The computer would be confused because there is a lot of noise in that data. Also, it's an inefficient way to communicate because of the time it takes. It's still a sound = idea framework.

    If there was a language like that, and you had to express the fact that you're thirsty.. those sound phrases are just synonyms:

    "Spack blah" = I'm thirsty
    "Argle bargle ne shlomo da jubee a" = "I'm thirsty"

    And if there was no "Spack blah", they'd just get tired and say "Argbarjuba" instead of saying that long second phrase.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    The computer would be confused because there is a lot of noise in that data. Also, it's an inefficient way to communicate because of the time it takes. It's still a sound = idea framework.

    If there was a language like that, and you had to express the fact that you're thirsty.. those sound phrases are just synonyms:

    "Spack blah" = I'm thirsty
    "Argle bargle ne shlomo da jubee a" = "I'm thirsty"

    And if there was no "Spack blah", they'd just get tired and say "Argbarjuba" instead of saying that long second phrase.
    That won't work in the case that "Argbarjuba" appears in more than one myth.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Metaphors only convey meaning effectively if both people are familiar with the original story/circumstance. That episode bothered me because it supposed it was possible for a language to be so completely enmeshed in metaphor that one party needing some literal background was a foreign concept- which presupposes that the exchange of literal meaning is not ever necessary. But I can’t imagine how meaning could be conveyed without literal language giving a foundation from which metaphors get their meaning. I can imagine entering into sphere of interaction using only metaphor once I had a solid foundation of language and meaning in place- but learning to communicate through metaphor would be too confusing, imo.

    Also: if you taught someone the word for “eyeglasses” was “Martin’s vision”- and that’s the only way they knew to refer to eyeglasses, then “Martin’s vision” would no longer be a metaphor- it would be the direct word, in that language, for eyeglasses. Once people generally start associating a word directly with a thing- instead of associating it with a different thing and making a comparison to the thing-at-hand-- then doesn’t it stop being a metaphor? [edit:] If you look at the etymology for a lot of words, you'll find that many 'names' of things are actually sort of metaphors for what a thing originally reminded people of.....yet because we were never taught that original literal meaning of this word, it's simply the direct name of that thing to us now. A 'metaphor' needs that buffer of having a direct language in order to stay a 'metaphor'.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member fripping's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Sorry, ain't buying the bullshit. A civilization that communicates in metaphorical language would not get off the ground, much less their home planet.
    Zinda, his face black, his eyes red!

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It's supposed to represent mythical language. American Indians spoke like this. For example, if someone goes to the chief with a problem, he might say something like, "You need to go to the place of the five rivers." But that's not to be taken literally, it's a reference to a myth
    Kind of like, "It rained for forty days and forty nights"?

    EDIT: No, I misread slightly. Similar in that both allude to cultural concepts, but a bit different...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Funny, I thought mathematics was a symbolic language.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #18
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'm guessing you were under the age of 12.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Funny, I thought mathematics was a symbolic language.
    It's not the same type of symbolic language as the type the OP is discussing. It also is unable to convey personal meaning in a way that cements a culture together.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I was pointing that out to note the deficits of "pure logic" esp when applied to sci fi programming. : ) )
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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