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  1. #11
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    Twin Peaks is a great show if you like characters. Also, it's directed by David Lynch, which is basass.
    Looove Twin Peaks!
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  2. #12
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    My order is plot, characters, aesthetics. A really good plot triumphs anything when it comes to storytelling for me. However, I am also really impatient when it comes to bad characters. I prefer great plots + mediocre characters over great characters + mediocre plot, but I just can't stand bad characters + anything.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    I'd say universally for me it's plot, character, aesthetics. While I see plot and character being heavily intertwined in the process of making an engaging story, aesthetics are so far down the list for me that it's almost completely irrelevant; No matter how good something looks, if the story isn't compelling, engaging, and somewhat original, it won't hold my interest for very long at all.
    "I'm just here so I won't get fined."

  4. #14
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    I'd say universally for me it's plot, character, aesthetics. While I see plot and character being heavily intertwined in the process of making an engaging story, aesthetics are so far down the list for me that it's almost completely irrelevant; No matter how good something looks, if the story isn't compelling, engaging, and somewhat original, it won't hold my interest for very long at all.
    Keep in mind that aesthetics means more than just visuals: it can mean the setting and the music as well as many other things. It's really the atmosphere, the feeling of a work. At the widest definition, this is a little unfair because it would almost include characters and plot in it. Not that I think this would change your opinion or anything.

    Of course, I think most of the best works contain great characters, aesthetic, and plot (Pulp Fiction, Brazil, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind to name a few).
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Kurt.Is.God's Avatar
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    I care about the concept which directs the story's aesthetics, characters and plot. I usually like books or movies because they carry out the concept well.

    If a story fails, for me, it's because it fails to carry out the concept. If a pulpy story like the ones in Philip K. Dick books--let's say, a story about a psychic kid in a coma who is God and eats souls--had been written a hundred years before the existence of postmodernism, it would have been terrible. Or it might even lack a coherent story: in Gravity's Rainbow, the story (if you can call it that) is a series of fragmented but connected events which start right after a rocket has been launched, which begin to ALMOST make sense just as the book nears its "parabola", and which fall apart as it descends again--ending right before the rocket hits the ground.

    The same with characters--usually, good characters help the concept, but if the characters are cardboard thin to serve the concept, that's alright. In Breakfast of Champions, the characters all serve to reinforce the "everyone is robots" epiphany moment of Dwayne Hoover.

    I don't know why, but I think aesthetics might be the most important of the three. It might be that the aesthetic permeates the entire work. In Lolita, the actual "story" (I don't think that's the right word) is ABOUT the fate of the exaggerated fantasy which the narrator fabricates. Nabokov said that without the act of individual creation, the world would "rot and stink" like a corpse. So a storytelling style filled with hidden meanings and allusions is essential to establishing the concept. Thomas Pynchon's books, on the other hand, are filled with the same hidden meanings and allusions, but where Nabokov's characters are self-conscious about creating them, Pynchon's characters wonder if they may be looking too hard or going crazy. They're trying to look for the truth BEHIND the meaning, the rotting and stinking world. So the only way the story can be told is with that mood of paranoia.

    A final thought: I think I can appreciate things which have concept and nothing else. I'm thinking of Borges's descriptions of fantasy worlds, which are sometimes just that and nothing else. Though maybe an interesting world is most closely related to aesthetics.

    I might be terrible at organizing my thoughts.

    Edit: I do think I'd be able to enjoy something if it had exceptionally good characters, plot, or aesthetics, even if it didn't have a good concept.

  6. #16
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Or if it just has a good aesthetic.

    If we considered drugs trips to be "art", they would be 100% aesthetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
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  7. #17

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    It's called movie magic for a reason. One step that doesn’t fit in with the rest and a film is crap.
    Good story (plot), Good aesthetics, Crap acting (characters) - Most modern films

    Good acting, Good aesthetics, Crap Plot - Sundance. Not that there isn’t any good stories, I just don't know how many drug themes I can handle.

    My order is Characters, Plot, and aesthetics. Character development is the bridge between your intended audience and the character.
    The plot is the character's world in which they try to get out of or in some cases get in. This is the trip you want to take the audience on.
    Aesthetics is a tossup. On the one hand you can have the most beautiful world imaginable but it has nothing to do with the character or the plot. Point in case the newer Star Wars. A planet of nothing but cityscapes? Who cares where they are we want light saber action!
    Then you have movies like Avatar which the setting was practically a character itself.

    I'm slowly getting into the film industry/business and I'm taking my INTJ personality along with me. I know what crap is and I know what good is....for me. Art is never 100% and nothing ever will be. My job as a film creator will be to bring a type of art to life and to enjoyed by all who witnesses it. Art is never perfect and that's what makes it perfect.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Kurt.Is.God's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call the aesthetics in Star Wars "good". Again, "good" for me ideally means they serve to advance the concept well. Though I guess I do think some things might have an absolutely irrelevant aesthetic which overrides everything else and gives it some merit. Star Wars is not an example. And neither is Avatar, in my opinion. I hated that movie.

    Drug trips may be 10% concept as well, if you include things like cheesy cosmic love or "Atman is Brahman." I like drug trips.

  9. #19
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucidLegend1984 View Post
    It's called movie magic for a reason. One step that doesn’t fit in with the rest and a film is crap.
    Good story (plot), Good aesthetics, Crap acting (characters) - Most modern films

    Good acting, Good aesthetics, Crap Plot - Sundance. Not that there isn’t any good stories, I just don't know how many drug themes I can handle.

    My order is Characters, Plot, and aesthetics. Character development is the bridge between your intended audience and the character.
    The plot is the character's world in which they try to get out of or in some cases get in. This is the trip you want to take the audience on.
    Aesthetics is a tossup. On the one hand you can have the most beautiful world imaginable but it has nothing to do with the character or the plot. Point in case the newer Star Wars. A planet of nothing but cityscapes? Who cares where they are we want light saber action!
    Then you have movies like Avatar which the setting was practically a character itself.

    I'm slowly getting into the film industry/business and I'm taking my INTJ personality along with me. I know what crap is and I know what good is....for me. Art is never 100% and nothing ever will be. My job as a film creator will be to bring a type of art to life and to enjoyed by all who witnesses it. Art is never perfect and that's what makes it perfect.
    I'm not sure you quite understand what is meant by "aesthetic". The Star Wars prequels, in my opinion, have total shit aesthetic. I guess I almost mean "atmosphere" more than aesthetic. Avatar was good looking aesthetically, kind of. But it was conventionally good looking and boring. I would almost say that it was kitsch. Also, I think that bad plot and characters can ruin an otherwise good aesthetic (there are some movies which are better with the sound off). On the other hand, good characters and plot can enhance the aesthetic. And vice versa, I think. They all influence each other.

    Aesthetic, in my opinion, is definitely the most important. Otherwise, lyric-less music would be pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt.Is.God View Post
    Drug trips may be 10% concept as well, if you include things like cheesy cosmic love or "Atman is Brahman." I like drug trips.
    So Kurt, I assume you liked The Stranger even though it was boring as shit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Kurt.Is.God's Avatar
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    I liked The Stranger, and it wasn't quite as boring as shit. How is this related to drug trips?

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