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Thread: What'cha Reading?

  1. #1121
    Senior Member Array niffer's Avatar
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    The Age of the Unthinkable by Joshua Cooper Ramo

    my boyfriend read the Korean version and I'm reading the English version, which gives us a solution to discussing literature ^^ (he's ESL level 2 or 3 and can't even manage with Harry Potter)
    sparkly sparkly rainbow excretions

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    holy shit am I a feeler?
    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  2. #1122
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    For a supposedly feminist book it sure doesn't seem to speak very highly of women. Blomkvist screwed, what, three of the main female characters? Berger, fine, but what was the point of the tryst with Cecilia Vanger? And Lisbeth?

    I'm totally at a loss. Lisbeth really is about as deep as Lara Croft. What the hell? Why even have a rape subplot with Lisbeth at all? Some sort of analogy (w.r.t. Harriet)?

    I don't get it.
    That's because it's not actually a "feminist book".
    Whether it was supposed to be one and just failed abysmally, I couldn't really say. Larsson the journalist, described himself as a feminist, but his fiction tells a different story.
    I'm not sure why you're focusing on Blomkvist's promiscuity though. That doesn't really say anything about women. I agree that it was pretty incongruous that so many women would find such a spectacularly dull man so irresistible, but as a thinly veiled alter ego for the novelist, I suppose one can't begrudge the fellow his fantasies...
    The rape subplot is motivation for Lisbeth's later acts of "revenge". I agree, though, there was much to be unsettled about - just not in the "right" ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #1123

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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I suppose you think it's 'empowering'...
    I just don't see a necessary connection between having sex and feminism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Larsson the journalist, described himself as a feminist, but his fiction tells a different story.
    The whole point, of course, is that his female characters, although they become victims of crimes committed by men, do not let themselves be victimized. They are strong-willed, they control their own lives.

  4. #1124
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The whole point, of course, is that his female characters, although they become victims of crimes committed by men, do not let themselves be victimized. They are strong-willed, they controll their own lives.
    Whose "whole point" would that be? The author's? I thought the author's motivation was completely irrelevant to you..?
    I don't agree that this is the whole point at all. I think there are as many ways of reading these books as there are readers.

    Also, most of the women in the books do not control their own lives. Even Salander is very much a victim and product of the system. And the way that she prevails is so unrealistic as to make a mockery of the possibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #1125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Whose "whole point" would that be? The author's?
    It is, I think, the whole point of the notion that the books are feminist books. I think those who believe them to be feminist books do so because of that factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I thought the author's motivation was completely irrelevant to you..?
    I never said that; in fact, I implied the opposite more than once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't agree that this is the whole point at all. I think there are as many ways of reading these books as there are readers.
    Although not all ways are equally well founded, I agree in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Also, most of the women in the books do not control their own lives. Even Salander is very much a victim and product of the system. And the way that she prevails is so unrealistic as to make a mockery of the possibility.
    Of course their fate has an impact on their lives. But a real victim would just give in to the oppression. If these were not feminist books, Harriet might have remained and died her brother's plastic doll, Salander would have given up in the face of Teleborian's methods, Berger would have quit the job because of the mails. I don't really care whether Larsson was a feminist writer, but I certainly got the impression that he was in favor of mentally strong women.

  6. #1126
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is, I think, the whole point of the notion that the books are feminist books. I think those who believe them to be feminist books do so because of that factor.
    I think they do so because they haven't thought about it for very long and/or don't really understand feminism.
    I never said that; in fact, I implied the opposite more than once.
    ORLY
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus
    Personally, I think to understand an author's motivation to write is less important than what he chooses to write.
    It is certainly irrelevant.
    ?

    Of course their fate has an impact on their lives. But a real victim would just give in to the oppression. If these were not feminist books, Harriet might have remained and died her brother's plastic doll, Salander would have given up in the face of Teleborian's methods, Berger would have quit the job because of the mails. I don't really care whether Larsson was a feminist writer, but I certainly got the impression that he was in favor of mentally strong women.
    That would not make for a very interesting narrative.
    Does that mean that rapist fantasies where the woman fights back are also feminist because "at least she has some spirit!" ?
    One can equally argue that they are misogynistic books, given their graphic depiction of violence against women within a genre that is designed to entertain /titillate rather than to inform. Personally, I think they are neither. I just think they are absurdly overrated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #1127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    ORLY
    Yes, really. When I said that his motivation "is certainly irrelevant", we were talking about the substance of the Salander character; and for that, his motivation is irrelevant. I fail to see how the other quote could be misread.

    I also said that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus
    But you are talking with me, not with someone for whom there is nothing outside the text [...].

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Does that mean that rapist fantasies where the woman fights back are also feminist because "at least she has some spirit!" ?
    I suppose they could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    One can equally argue that they are misogynistic books, given their graphic depiction of violence against women within a genre that is designed to entertain /titillate rather than to inform.
    One could at least try. It would not be very convincing, though.

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    L'anima non dimora Array Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    The Wind in the Willows, by Kenneth Grahame

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
    Victor Hugo



    LII/INTj (Analyst) - 1w9 Sp/Sx - RC|O|EI - Melancholy/Choleric

  9. #1129
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    Waiting for the Barbarians by J.M. Coetzee.

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    Warflower Array Nijntje's Avatar
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    The Worst Date Ever: War Crimes, Hollywood Heart-throbs and Other Abominations - Jane Bussman (it sounds horrible and fluffy but is about Joseph Kony's LRA and war crimes in Uganda)

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


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