The Walking Dead- CONTAINS SPOILERS!

[Tallulah]

Presumably you watched this week's episode and loved that Andrea called out Lori for being a selfish, bossy cow?

I'm about to watch it now, but that sounds very satisfying!

I didn't really start watching the show until a couple weeks ago, when I bought the first season Blu-rays and watched the first half of the second season in a Sunday marathon on AMC. I think if you watch them back-to-back-to-back you get a very different sense of how the narrative works, vs. watching one episode every week. They all flow quite well. There's always a new predicament, a new motivation, a new revelation, etc. to keep the story advancing.

A lot of you seem to have been very annoyed at the first half of the second season ("The Walking Dead II: The Search for Sophia") because of a lack of "zombie apocalypse action". I don't get it! That's what separates The Walking Dead from the rest of the zombie productions ever done before! A zombie TV show has the freedom to explore characters to a depth and length you couldn't possibly do in a movie. The point of the show IS the human interactions and the shifts in motivations and alliances and petty politics and arguments and all that crap. It's exploring what people would do in that situation. The zombies are the backdrop, not the point.

Well, of course, everyone's tastes are different, but the concerns we've had in this thread are pretty consistent throughout the fanbase.

I agree that the human interaction stuff is, or should be, the point of this show, but I detected a marked shift in tone between the very intense first season, in which we were presented with a scary, unpredictable new world where danger lurked around every corner and the outlook seemed impossibly bleak, and the focus was primarily on Rick's adjustment to it, as the main protagonist standing in for the viewer, and the first half of the second season. I'm going to start a new sentence now, b/c that one was getting way too long. The first half of season two ground to a screeching halt, action-wise, and became more of a soap opera, but the problem was, we still didn't have enough backstory for each character to really care about their family members getting killed or a love triangle or anything they were pushing in our direction. Then they introduced a bunch MORE characters to help our heroes wade through the molasses of the plot. If anything, I think the show was suffering from too many characters and not enough movement. If I wanted to watch interpersonal drama alone, I'd watch Days of our Lives. This show is supposed to be about the Zombie Apolcalypse, and we were getting a couple of zombies every couple of episodes, just to remind us that it was a zombie show.

Furthermore, many of the characters were getting whiny and annoying. Lori was bossy and self-centered. Carol was a depressed cipher. Dale was a self-righteous prig. T-Dog was non-existent. Shane was Rambo 2.0. Glenn and Maggie--ugh. We needed some fresh blood, so to speak, but not new characters to whine at each other--characters to introduce some danger and uncertainty, like the Philly Two. For pete's sake, we spent most of the last six episodes talking about Sophia and wondering where she was, when we weren't wondering what kind of a world Carl would grow up in and whether or not it's cool to raise a kid in this atmosphere. Only, you know what, writers? SHOW the choices he's having to make and let us wonder that.

Anyhoo, that's my take on it. I'll be back once I've watched this week. I've been encouraged by the last two eps.

 

[Tallulah]

Okay, that was probably the best episode since season 1! Perfect mix of interpersonal angst, decision-making and full-on zombie-killin'. I liked that Rick and Shane had it out, that Shane's stupidity almost got them killed, but Rick still saved him. I liked the argument between Lori and Andrea. I think they're both a bit selfish. Andrea was right, I guess, but I don't think that giving the girl the freedom to kill herself was her call to make, either. It worked out, but it was still really ballsy, considering they're living at the mercy of Herschel and his family. If she'd killed herself on Andrea's watch, they'd almost certainly have all been kicked off the property, and it's not looking great now.

I'm wondering, too, if there's going to be some bad blood between Andrea and Lori, or Andrea plotting against Lori since she couldn't hear Lori sticking up for her to Maggie.

FINALLY, something's starting to happen that makes me interested.

I haven't seen previews for next week. Hmm, I should go see if there are any on amc's site.

 

[Savage Idealist]

Okay, that was probably the best episode since season 1! Perfect mix of interpersonal angst, decision-making and full-on zombie-killin'. I liked that Rick and Shane had it out, that Shane's stupidity almost got them killed, but Rick still saved him. I liked the argument between Lori and Andrea. I think they're both a bit selfish. Andrea was right, I guess, but I don't think that giving the girl the freedom to kill herself was her call to make, either. It worked out, but it was still really ballsy, considering they're living at the mercy of Herschel and his family. If she'd killed herself on Andrea's watch, they'd almost certainly have all been kicked off the property, and it's not looking great now.

I'm wondering, too, if there's going to be some bad blood between Andrea and Lori, or Andrea plotting against Lori since she couldn't hear Lori sticking up for her to Maggie.

FINALLY, something's starting to happen that makes me interested.

I haven't seen previews for next week. Hmm, I should go see if there are any on amc's site.

I concur, last night's episode was really good. Actually at first, I thought that all the scenes at the house were going to be boring and pointless, and do nothing other than distract from the intensity of the Rick/Shane fight + zombie attack. But once I saw that whats-her-name was trying to commit suicide and subsequently Lori and Andrea were becoming confrontational, I was midly impressed to say the least. I really like how the writers can manage to build drama in two different locations at once, it's very satisfying. Also, the whole 'being able to choose suicide' thing actually creates another moral dilemma (the first being the kid whom they were going to abondon), which give the show more depth and drama.

 

[CzeCze]

Wow the previous season 2 sucked. I'm glad they got new writers. It makes sense they were stuck in one location.. Or running around a forest (cheap set ) cause damn that was boring. And all that yapping, blah blah blah, about mostly nothing. They could have condensed those episodes into 2 or 3 tops.

I'm glad they are getting back to action and conflict. Glad they are introducing the concept of other people as threats, not just zombies, because it's realistic and also more interesting. More conflict! Yeah! Putting the survival into survival horror!

I like that Andreas character so far hasn't devolved into a caricature but well see.

 

[iwakar]

I may not be crazy about Lori, but I like Andrea waaaaaay less and have for a long time. She's been pissing me off since Episode 2 or 3.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

I may not be crazy about Lori, but I like Andrea waaaaaay less and have for a long time. She's been pissing me off since Episode 2 or 3.

haha, me too

 

[Tallulah]

I may not be crazy about Lori, but I like Andrea waaaaaay less and have for a long time. She's been pissing me off since Episode 2 or 3.

Yeah, I want to like Andrea, but it's hard. She's just not accessible. I relate to her objectively as a character, but I don't connect with her at all. It's the actress, I think. There's no vulnerability there, even when she's crying. It doesn't help that the backstories these characters get are pretty generic. I'd find it hard to play any of these characters.

 

[Not_Me]

Season 2 didn't make me care enough about the characters to remember their names. I better get up to speed so that I can follow the discussions here.

 

[iwakar]

I guess so. It would be nice if we had a few flashbacks to before the zombies, so we could see people being normal and smiling and having a life and interests. The nature of the situation makes everyone 100% angsty all the time, and while that's understandable, it makes the characters less likable. Lori and Dale in particular have exactly one reaction face. I want the characters on this show to be a bit more fleshed-out.

You know I was just reading online yesterday at AMC's website that back in October they had an exclusive online mini-webisode series that offered backstory on the characters before the apocalypse. Unfortunately, I can't find anything more on it. Does anyone know anything more about this?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I'm surprised no one's commented on last night's episode.

I was kind of disappointed at how the show dealt with the prisoner situation. They didn't really give us enough info to decide how he should be dealt with. And accordingly, I could see myself not being happy with whatever they chose to do with him.

Given the morally vague set up, I think the prisoner situation was handled about as well as it could have been.

That being said, I'm getting tired of all the soap boxing going on. Every time a security decision needs to be made, we need 20 minutes of arguing on humanities behalf.

I don't care, kill him or don't, but don't make me sit here and listen to Dale bemoan the loss of civilization. The instant the dead rose, all the old societal rules died.

They clearly can't trust the prisoner, as Lori demonstrated when she request that he at least remain locked up.

Given the realities of limited supplies, limited man power, the confirmation of a larger hostile well armed group, and no way of knowing where the prisoner's loyalties lie, I would kill him.

Having come from another group, and given the fact that the zombie apocalypse has been going on for quite sometime now, I would assume that the prisoner has made ties with his home group that aren't easily cast aside. He likely has started a relationship with a woman in that group (most likely), made close friends with that some in that group (less likely given the rapey tendencies he's described), has family in that group with him (least likely).

Considering these facts, I would condemn him to death.

(the preview of next weeks episode seems to support my reasoning)

I hate how they used Carl as a deus ex machina, despite the fact that Carl was calling for the execution himself.

This scene reminds me of the first scene of Game of Thrones (GoT) where Bran was made to watch his father behead a deserter from the wall.

They need to quit using the desire to preserve and protect Carl's innocence as a child, as a scapegoat to keep from making the tough decisions. The only ones still pretending that he has any innocence are his parents.

I was really hoping Carl would shoot that walker stuck in the mud. That would have allowed for some really interesting character development in Carl as well as in his family. Lori would have to come to grips with the fact that Carl must learn to be a killer when he needs to be. Carl would have a right of passage becoming a man moment, and we could have a good father son bonding conversation recounting the experience i.e. "you should have seen me Dad, I wasn't scared at all and did just what you told me."

But what did they do... pussy out and have Carl get way too close and drop the gun.

Oh well. That scene didn't move the story along at all given what happened.

Rick and Lori didn't even find out that he left, stole Daryl's gun, and almost died.

I suspect the story will come out next episode when Daryl's asks where his pistol went.

But even then I doubt much will come of it beside him getting in trouble with Rick and Lori, and Daryl not trusting him.

This is yet another instance illustrating the need of Lori and Rick to quit coddling Carl, and let him contribute (in those ways he can) to the group. I understand he got shot and almost died, but that was an accident, and no matter how much you try to shield him, the zombies don't care. Really teach him to use a gun, take him to kill his first zombie with supervision, and let him play a more active role.

I'm glad Herschel approves of Glen, but he doesn't really have much choice considering the lack of other male suitors.

And last, but certainly not least... Dale.

I'm fine with the way things went down except for one thing.

How are zombie's strong enough to rip open a mans torso with their hands.

I thought the assumption was that zombies are generally less capable than their human counter parts.

Besides that, all good.

I know I've griped a bit, but this was a great episode all things considered.

I suspect we will have a confrontation between the farm group and the the prisoner's group in the season finale, which should force our group away from the farm (finally).

I'm trying to decide how I think the group is going to be forced from the farm.

So far I'm thinking (in order of likelihood):
- zombies over run (fight between two groups draws them)
- the farm gets burnt down
- hostiles succeed in pushing group out of farm and take it over themselves (least likely, b/c enough of the farm group would have to survive to continue the show, but I don't see them surrendering the farm without heavy losses).

Your thoughts?

 

[Patches]

I hate Carl. That little shit lacks basic common sense and deserves to be purged from the gene pool. Also, why is it that Rick and Lori are keeping zero tabs on their child in the middle of a GODDAMN ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE? They were just nonchalantly chit-chatting on the porch and never thought, "Gee, we have a child. There are zombies and guns everywhere. MAYBE we should find out where our moody child has been for the last several hours."? He's acting up, talking back to other adults, going to hang out with the friendly hostage, and just generally being a moody wreck, and they don't think it's a good idea to make sure he's within sight of an adult at all times?

I thought the turn of events with Dale was exciting, but it scares me about the direction we're headed. There has frankly... Been very little character development the past few episodes. Aside from watching lengthy discussions about how neutral everyone is about everything, Dale was one of the few people generating interesting dialog. He wasn't such a passive, boring character. Glenn and Daryl are probably our best hopes for that now. I do hope they show more Daryl.

I would have shot the hostage by now.

 

[Patches]

Also, major spoiler image. Don't click if you didn't watch this week:

 

[iwakar]

+1 to all of what [MENTION=6724]DiscoBiscuit[/MENTION] and [MENTION=10780]Patches[/MENTION] said with one exception --the killing of the hostage. I really think that since Rick fucked up and brought him all the way back to camp --and fuck Lori's whining about Rick being safe when she's done everything rash and unsafe herself, including not watching her damn kid-- (and did everyone forget the hostage was blindfolded and doesn't know where they are?), at the very least he can drive him out to some distant, cozy place and let him loose to make his way in the world or not. He made that hostage his little red wagon when he picked him up and now he has to fuckin cart that responsibility.

And does anyone else think that Andrea is overly-influenced by Shane? Frankly, that man is no orator, so how much can that speak for her intelligence and moral malleability? Maybe Dale's death will smack her out of this weird GI Jane, female-empowerment via armed egoism cockstrut she's been sporting for too many episodes now. You're confusing your lemming-like gullibility for machismo pumpkin, wake up.

Also excited to see what becomes of Daryl's character. And why is T-Dog still just characterboard wallpaper?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

And why is T-Dog still just characterboard wallpaper?

T-Dog... the character that wasn't.

 

[The Outsider]

I can't believe Dale turned out to be the only reasonable person in the group.
Not sure how much longer I can put up with this writing.

Interestingly, I find the ending scenes to always be done really well. Almost feels like the people involved should do music videos or commercials or something else that doesn't require good characterization, dialogue and plot.

 

[Tallulah]

For all their talk about Carl and how he's growing up, Lori constantly pawns her kid off on the other adults. Out of sight, out of mind. And Rick is always off being Dudley Do Right, but choking when it comes to making decisions.

For once, I was glad to see a discussion that took into account all the possibilities regarding Randall, and I admire Dale for standing up for humanity, but as a whole, this show is boring when they sit around talking about how the world has changed. There needs to be more acting and less philosophizing. I'd rather see Rick grappling with the fact that he made a wrong decision than sitting around paralyzed with indecision. In real life, there'd be a lot of uncertainty and wringing of hands, but it doesn't make for good tv.

Carl is so annoying. I just don't care about him as much as the writers want me to, and he's screwing things up for everyone else. Was glad to see Carol have a backbone after Carl backtalked her, and I liked Rick's "think" speech. It reminded us why he's the leader and was a nice moment for father and son.

 

[iwakar]

+1 to all of that

Carl is so annoying. I just don't care about him as much as the writers want me to, and he's screwing things up for everyone else. Was glad to see Carol have a backbone after Carl backtalked her, and I liked Rick's "think" speech. It reminded us why he's the leader and was a nice moment for father and son.

I'm not ashamed to admit that that quiet, pasty-faced little sneak engenders small maternal love in my heart.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

poor dale.

ps: I'm hoping Carl gets bitten by a zombie soon so I won't have to look at his annoying fucking face again.
edit: And his mother.

 

[Tallulah]

+1 to all of that



I'm not ashamed to admit that that quiet, pasty-faced little sneak engenders small maternal love in my heart.

Heehee. I don't mind the kid who plays him so much, but the way they're writing him and everything pertaining to him is just ugh.

Something that bothers me, too, re: the Randall situation, is that they are a big bunch of hypocrites. Why should Herschel's group have just taken them in? Sure, Carl was shot, but wasn't it a risk to take a band of armed survivors onto your nice, cozy little compound? Wasn't there a risk that Rick's group could have simply taken over? Rick should never have taken the kid home if he wasn't planning on integrating him to the group.

I think the group has screwed up their chance to drive him out and leave him (isn't gas something that should be conserved?), because they've done everything they can to make enemies of this kid, and he knows they have a fully-stocked, safe fortress now. If he did manage to meet someone with a car, it would be fairly easy to find his way back just based on the amount of time that passed before they let him out, especially if he grew up in the area, and especially if he really does know Maggie's family.

 

[iwakar]

If he did manage to meet someone with a car, it would be fairly easy to find his way back just based on the amount of time that passed before they let him out, especially if he grew up in the area, and especially if he really does know Maggie's family.

Did they ever try to corroborate what this kid said with Maggie? --to clarify how well he actually knows her etc.?