The Walking Dead- CONTAINS SPOILERS!

[Ivy]

Oooooh, this is creepy. The King of Hearts was based on Charlemagne, whose father, Charles VI went pretty much screaming mad:

The king continued to suffer from periods of mental illness throughout his life. During one attack in 1393, Charles could not remember his name and did not know he was king. When his wife came to visit, he asked his servants who she was and ordered them to take care of what she required so that she would leave him alone.[4]

That would make Carl the "suicide king" of this episode.

 

[Totenkindly]

Oooooh, this is creepy. The King of Hearts

Thanks, Ivy. I missed that connection entirely -- I might have heard it as a kid, but forgot until you reminded me.

At least there was some method to the madness (ha ha!) there.

For me, last night wasn't great, but I think next week will be much better. Looks like they're following the comics right now, so things should be getting very crazy soon!

As crazy as Rick?

I did read the synopsis on the comic. If it is really following the comic, we'll need a larger supply of body bags.

 

[Ivy]

Some sites link the King of Hearts to the mad king himself. My guess would be that's where they're coming from with this episode.

 

[Totenkindly]

Some sites link the King of Hearts to the mad king himself. My guess would be that's where they're coming from with this episode.

Too bad they couldn't actually use the deck of cards in the episode itself, to make the connection/symbolism stronger.

Would that make the Governator the "one-eyed PhillipJack?"

 

[Ivy]

Oh snap!

 

[Totenkindly]

The term "jack" actually meant "commoner" or peasant, back centuries ago when the term originated. Which makes it an interesting part of the card deck -- it's like a commoner being considered royalty.

Just found this on the wiki page:

Glen Mazzara, when asked about the direction of the character for the third season of the show, explained that he will be shown as a man self-absorbed with the concept that the new apocalyptic world is his chance to have the power he lacked in everyday life.

I've been trying to avoid reading too much about the specific characters in the comic, just in case something transfers to the show, but Michonne REALLY messed him up in the book... he apparently lost more than just an eye.

*tag* you're up!

 

[Ivy]

Just found this on the wiki page:

Feeling pretty good about my having nailed it without reading anything on the web about the plan for that character. Insight: I has it.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, Episode #10 definitely seemed to be a step up again.
...And that bastard Governor just needs to die at this point.

Trying to figure out who the next redshirts will be, and what happened to Tyresse (was that his name?) and his gang....
And now it looks like Merle and Glenn are gonna have to lay down the smack. Can't wait to see how THAT goes.

I'm disappointed with their decision to kill off all the prisoners. It leaves me not wanting to invest in new characters, if they are just being introduced in order to die.

Also, they need to do something with Andrea. Right now she's coming off stupid, and her scenes are kind of dead / go nowhere. The problem is that she's basically being kept in Woodbury as a writer's device to give them a reasonable way to show scenes from that encampment. Someone from the main cast has to be there, in terms of the "good guys," for them to justify showing us scenes there.... and apparently they chose Andrea as the device by which to do that. It was okay for a few episodes, and created some great drama between her and Michonne, but at this point she needs to take over the place or leave -- she's not nearly as stupid as they are playing her.

I saw a review that said the tension between Glenn and Maggie isn't believable. I don't actually have a problem with it, in the sense they are both very young, and this was a major romance, and they just went through the ringer. They are both changing very very rapidly this season. And I think when you're that young and dealing with a bunch of crap like this, you strike out at those you love and sometimes do/say stupid things in terms of misplaced aggression. They just need space and time to settle out a little.

I'm glad Darryl finally told Merle to fuck off, basically. Good for him.

I have to repeat again that, after the letdown of the mid-season premiere, this episode was a great example of what this show can actually be.

 

[Tigerlily]

I never thought I'd have mad love for a redneck, but Daryl really got to me last night!

The way he laid into Merle was just spectacular! Andrea is a fucking moron, I've never liked her, and I hate any scene that includes her. She needs to die asap. As for Rick, I'm worried that while he's delusional, he's going to bump straight into a walker, who he thinks is Lori, and have a chunk taken out of him, so I hope he snaps out of it soon! My favorite character is still Michonne! Nothing hotter than a bad ass, strong woman!! The Glenn and Maggie were very dull last night. Glenn is supposed to be calm and logical, not a spazzy nut case. ALSO, where are they getting all this formula for the baby?

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm very excited. It turns out my oldest kid went all Walking Dead crazy last week.... he actually watched EVERY episode available + the Sunday night one.

I wish I had the time to just watch 3.5+ seasons of a show in a week's time.

Anyway, now I have someone else to talk about it with.


[MENTION=408]Tigerlily[/MENTION]:

Yeah, I worried for Rick too. It is far too easy for him to get fubar'ed when he's running around seeing things and not paying attention to his surroundings.

Glenn scans ISFP to me, he's sensible in a practical way, but his behavior seems allowable for someone who was beaten and almost killed, and whose girlfriend was almost raped, when the enemy is still out there. He's feeling very vulnerable and "in the grip" -- totally acting unlike himself, in order to protect the people he loves. As such, he also is not thinking clearly.

I thought they picked up a few weeks worth of formula. In terms of story time, only a few days has passed, right?

Darryl is awesome. I've never loved a redneck more. Pretty good for someone who I don't think is in the comic at all.

 

[Totenkindly]

Tonight's episode was paced a little slower, to get a breather after all the craziness in recent weeks. That's not a bad thing sometimes...

Great convo between Merle and Herschel -- believable, and it showed some similarities / connection points there. It's nice to see a scene every so often where Merle isn't a total ass.

We're seeing the fallout of Rick being such a fucking nutjob lately. Tyresse and Co could have been their allies, now they're potentially joining with the enemy as they don't know any better. His paranoia has cost the Jailies dearly.

Milton's a skeevy little shit. What a cowardly flake, my pity has moved into sheer loathing. It's hard to respect anyone without a spine.

And the writers have pretty much ruined Andrea. I was almost expecting her to get popped tonight, when she didn't shiv the governor. To be honest, I'm really surprised the governor trusted her enough to sleep with her, both figuratively AND literally -- she was a wild card, and he's been such a paranoid anti-social lately, I expected him to just shoot her when she came back. Anyway, that clarifies she's either compromised or loony to think there is a way out without bloodshed, and this doesn't even jibe with the typically pragmatism of her character; and if she truly was "in love with the guy" and thus torn between conflicting goods, maybe then we'd have sympathy for her, but she just seems way off course now because she knows he's slime and there's little hope for a truce, yet she can't bring herself to off him.

I had forgotten she didn't know about Shane. That was a nice little reveal between her and Carol.

Decent commentary:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...on-3-episode-11-review-the-judas-of-woodbury/

Gotta again give some praise to Michonne -- probably the most she's articulated her opinion, and it's good to hear what she is thinking.

 

[Totenkindly]

All in all, a decent "pause in the action" episode to give everyone a breather and set mood a bit.

- Michonne firmly cements herself as a member of the group in this episode, due to her interactions with Carl AND with Rick. Also got a little bit of flavor to her character, with her going back for the cat. deadpan humor works for her. Probably has one of the best jokes in the series so far ("What, we're eating the guy's food now??" after shooting Morgan, and she doesn't miss a chew as she says, "[The] mat said 'Welcome'. The same mat that was booby-trapped with spikes under it, of course.)

- Nice touching moment for Carl to get a picture of his mom and family for his sister.

- We find out what happened with Morgan, from way back in Episode #1, and it's sad sad stuff -- tied directly to how things played out there. He couldn't kill his wife, and now he lost his son.

- Carl proves himself to be capable by stepping out and popping Morgan unexpectedly.

- Nice closure on Morgan telling him never to be sorry... as his own son hesitated and was lost.

- Now Rick's group has enough guns to at least put up a fight against Woodbury.

- The rat/bird lures were an interesting idea. Poor li'l guys.

- Cool anecdote. "Erin, we're going to Stone Mountain" said the sign, and then a zombie with an Erin bracelet shows up later.


I have mixed feelings about the opening and closing scenes. In some ways, Rick's become a dick and turned away good people who could have contributed, while trying to accept others out of ties to them who might be as crazy as bedbugs. There's the food problem; on the other hand, though, they needed help for the Woodbury issue, and he basically let a man die at the hands of zombies in this episode when he had two chances to help him -- and then went back for his pack. That was pretty cold.

 

[Ivy]

IMO best episode in the season, maybe best in series since the pilot.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

IMO best episode in the season, maybe best in series since the pilot.

You might be right. It was fantastic. I wonder how much of the decision to bring Morgan back was fan-driven. I'm not a fan of that, but I'm a fan of this.

Am I the only one who thought the knife went right into the center of Rick's chest and was puzzled at how he just got up and started walking around? Later they showed the wound to be near the shoulder, but that was totally not where it went in when he was stabbed.

Also, do we need spoiler tags in this thread? I thought all the TV and movie related threads were simply understood to have spoilers.

 

[Ivy]

I think the hitchhiker scenes, rather than showing what a dick Rick has become, show the harsh reality of the necessity of self-preservation in the apocalyptic landscape. A season or two ago, it would have been a whole episode where they deliberate about whether/how to help the guy. But by now they've all learned the hard way that helping strangers usually doesn't end well. For the most part the only others Rick still tries to help aren't strangers- they're people he feels he's made a promise to. IMO, the idea is that this far in, even the most altruistic, civic duty minded people have circled the wagons.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I think the hitchhiker scenes, rather than showing what a dick Rick has become, show the harsh reality of the necessity of self-preservation in the apocalyptic landscape. A season or two ago, it would have been a whole episode where they deliberate about whether/how to help the guy. But by now they've all learned the hard way that helping strangers usually doesn't end well. For the most part the only others Rick still tries to help aren't strangers- they're people he feels he's made a promise to. IMO, the idea is that this far in, even the most altruistic, civic duty minded people have circled the wagons.

I agree, and I think that was the point of this episode. That was what Morgan was all about. One of his graffiti scribblings on a building was "No Guilt - You Know That", and he admonished Carl to never be sorry for protecting his people. I think one of the many meanings of "Clear" for him is to clear your psyche of the kinds of moral dickering that the civilized world allowed you to indulge in but which are no longer relevant.

 

[Totenkindly]

Am I the only one who thought the knife went right into the center of Rick's chest and was puzzled at how he just got up and started walking around? Later they showed the wound to be near the shoulder, but that was totally not where it went in when he was stabbed.

I don't know. I thought it was chest too, but it was a side shot and depth perception might have been off.

Also, do we need spoiler tags in this thread? I thought all the TV and movie related threads were simply understood to have spoilers.

I don't know. I've been chewed out recently by someone for not using spoilers, even when my post hid the most important points of the item in question, so it's confusing.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think the hitchhiker scenes, rather than showing what a dick Rick has become, show the harsh reality of the necessity of self-preservation in the apocalyptic landscape. A season or two ago, it would have been a whole episode where they deliberate about whether/how to help the guy. But by now they've all learned the hard way that helping strangers usually doesn't end well. For the most part the only others Rick still tries to help aren't strangers- they're people he feels he's made a promise to. IMO, the idea is that this far in, even the most altruistic, civic duty minded people have circled the wagons.

I agree, and I think that was the point of this episode. That was what Morgan was all about. One of his graffiti scribblings on a building was "No Guilt - You Know That", and he admonished Carl to never be sorry for protecting his people. I think one of the many meanings of "Clear" for him is to clear your psyche of the kinds of moral dickering that the civilized world allowed you to indulge in but which are no longer relevant.

Well, I think FMW's post makes a good tie-in the background graffiti messaging and the episode message.

But I'll say overall I disagree with Ivy's comments, in how Rick has been portrayed -- I think the writing has been VERY unclear about this. Rick's views have basically been portrayed as extreme even among his group, who continually challenge his unwillingness to give people a chance; typically the characters who prove untrustworthy seem very untrustworthy and are dealt with; the characters who seem trustworthy have still been distrusted by Rick, to the group's detriment, and we still will have some fallout left from his decision to kick out Tyresse and co; and I thought that Carl and Michonne both seemed to be hesitant about ditching the hitchhiker but were looking for cues from Rick, who gave none. And his group would have died long ago if Herschel hadn't overcome his own misgivings and given Rick (who BEGGED him) a shot for he and his group. Rick's behavior is the most extreme of the group, and there will be repercussions due to his unwillingness to at least give people a shot.

When Carl grows up, I think even despite his experiences, he won't be as callous as Rick is being currently. Rick is right to be wary, but he's far beyond that IMO.

 

[Ivy]

That doesn't really mesh at all with what I'm seeing, or how I'm reading commentary from the show's creators and writers. His psychosis re: Lori had just come to a head when Tyreese et. al. came through- that seems to have crested and started to back off somewhat at this point. Not to mention, he was right to be wary of them- remember that a couple of their party were agitating to ambush Carol, Carl, and Herschel and take over the prison? Sucks to be Tyreese and what'shername and get thrown out with them, I guess, but those others in their party were on track to prove Rick's wariness right. And he did take Darryl and Merle back, despite Merle's inability to play well with others and his having been the Governator's right hand man.

Up to this season Rick has been the one who would argue for inclusion and giving people a chance- this season, especially post-Lori, he's closing off. IMO both his psychosis and his unwillingness to help strangers anymore are a comment on the just unspeakable horror in the WD universe.

 

[iwakar]

[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] I was thinking those very same things when watching the episode. I feel like there will be a lesson taught to Rick and viewers for his slip from 'protecting my peeps' into 'callous indifference to the welfare of others' (with the hitchhiker incident and scaring off the friendly prison refugees), which is a much smaller slip than one might think. Perhaps it's because he's law enforcement and his psychological foray in watching death far predates the zombie-pocalypse survivors'? I'm not sure why his indifference is barely a step above Merle's, but it's alarming that the group's leader and resident pariah share this trait and I suspect the show's writers intend to punish accordingly.

Also, is anyone else relieved that the writers seem to be giving Michonne's "angry black woman" schtick a rest and are preparing to make her a more psychologically 3-dimensional character?