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  1. #41
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yes, but again, what is standard for one community isn't for another. Dodgeball is a no contact sport (in my experience anyway) and I've NEVER seen a girl play tackle football - flag and two hand touch, yes, but aside from that.. and neither of those is wrestling.
    You're thinking way too narrow.

    What you're talking about: JUST wrestling. Just sports.
    What I'm talking about: A mentality that shows women will never be regarded as anything but a woman, and thus never taken seriously. A mentality that will never take a woman trying to strive for something she enjoys seriously, because "Why should I? Other women aren't great at it, so why should she be different? Why should I make an exception for her?" A mentality that throws social stigmas on her no matter where she goes.

    She just wants to wrestle. I don't see the big deal about it. But everyone blows it up into this big thing--trying to throw all these standards about what is, what has been, and what they feel should be. In the end.. she competed, WON, and was fit to fight. And you still won't let her. When you watch it in movies, it's, "Oh those poor protagonists!" but in real life? Everyone loves it when the antagonists win. It means they don't have to change their comfortable ways of life.

    Just because you haven't seen something happen doesn't mean it's invalid. We played tackle football all the time, and I promise you no female got their puny little glass body destroyed, and no man tried to have sex with her either.

    There's a huge difference between what is often viewed as a vaguely sexual activity, the outcome of which is highly dependent on physical size, and something as arbitrary and irrelevant as race.
    Like I said, you're thinking too narrow. It isn't about vaguely sexual activity. I get highly offended when people try to refer to MMA fighting as sexual--it is NOT. It is an art. "ART" is literally in the damn name. (hint: it's what the A stands for.) Unless you mean to tell me that every wrestler who exists is engaging in sexual activities, I fail to see how wrestling is sexual. Physical contact is NOT sexual. Being taught otherwise is just... setting people up for failure.

    Anyways. It isn't about sexual activities. It's about holding an entire gender back because of what YOU think they should do. The opinion of one, or even many, shouldn't be the deciding factor in things. I was relating that to integration because blacks were the minority. Whites felt with every bone they had and gave every excuse in the world on why they shouldn't be learning next to white children. But at the end of the day, their opinions on what blacks should and should not do DOESN'T matter. And it was decided that.

    I get men all the time that'll tell me to my face I shouldn't be in combat supportive roles who have never enlisted or served. It's amazing how entitled they feel about telling me how to do the job I've been trained to do and have done before with success. It's an entire mentality of men who, no matter who the woman is, they feel entitled and even duty-bound to dictate how that woman should and should not live her life.

    Go watch the Olympics and compare the men's and women's events. Both genders at the height of conditioning and training, and the men still consistently outperform women in just about everything where physical power/strength is the main factor. Wrestling, boxing, etc. I'm not sure what fighting and wrestling you watch, because as far as I know real fighting does not mix genders. Maybe WWE does, but to call that real fighting is an amusing thought xD
    FWIW, WWE has some amazing moments in it. Just because it's fake doesn't mean real shit has never happened--and they've never broken character during it. (Disclaimer: I'm not a WWE fan, I just read an amazing article on it.)

    And UFC does not mix genders, no. But to say that fighting doesn't mix genders just because the UFC doesn't show it is ridiculous. You said yourself you've sparred with women before. You don't have to be in the spotlight to be mixed. These kids are far from Olympic status, so I think the same principles apply here.

    Or how about you not place someone where they don't belong. "There are plenty of other sports in high school you can try out for." Would we really put a guy into a traditionally female activity just because "well, there aren't any guys groups"? I think not.
    Last time I checked, we had two males on our high school cheerleading squad. It happens in the reverse all the time--people don't mind it in the reverse. There are guys on dance squads, cheerleading squads, etc. All the time. They're the minority, for sure, but they're allowed. The girls, surprisingly enough, don't try to tell them what they should or shouldn't do. They welcome them to try. ... Because we don't even get that much when it's the other way around half the time.

    What do you hate? That his values say "No, I'm not going to wrestle a girl" - I know plenty of guys who won't engage in physical violence [even of the sanctioned sport related kind] against a woman. I see nothing wrong with that mentality. Even if it wasn't "those values" and it was his discomfort with the idea of being in close contact with a girl like that, I think that is preferable to him enjoying said contact >.>
    Why is it so black and white with you? Either he has to hate contact with a girl, or sexualize it? Why can't a guy just enjoy the sport for what it is, regardless of the opponent? If you put any other word than "girl" in there, I don't know if you'd have the same response to this thread. And that's the part that bugs me.

    It isn't that HE can't handle it. It's that the mentality he's been brought up with has deemed him unable to handle it. That's the part I'm getting at. It isn't that he cares--he probably hugs female friends 100x a day if he's a typical extroverted male in high school. He doesn't feel comfortable with the IDEA of a female wrestling. Instead of taking her seriously as a wrestler, and putting her gender second and thinking of her as an opponent first.

    If someone was against violence.. why be in a violent sport in the first place? Why would you want violence upon your own brothers? To me, the art of the sport takes precedence over the violence and that's why men do it--men appreciate the art that goes into this controlled violence.. And whenever women try to appreciate it as well, men somehow default back to the "violence" stage of it and use that as their saving grace to keep women away from THEIR art.

    The idea that a guy refuses to wrestle with a woman? Let's be real here. Women are not the physical equals of men.
    I already answered this: Wrestling occurs in weight classes. So they WERE pretty equal in terms of physical stature. And the competition wasn't any different leading up to that point, so she'd proven otherwise (though I think it's nonsense she needs to prove herself at all.)

    You will never see women as linebackers in the NFL. Not gonna happen.
    You won't see women PERIOD in the NFL. Smaller men won't make the cut either, but we don't emphasize that part of it. They are still men, at least.

    Men are physically far more suited to fighting than women are, and the sports that are simulating combat ought not be made coed.
    How the NFL is ANYTHING like fighting baffles me. Fighting is technique, and controlled. You don't need to be abnormally strong, or big, to be a great fighter. If you want, I can name a dozen able and fit female fighters from across history that could take a guy on anytime. Like I said earlier.. just because a majority is one way doesn't mean we should hold back the minority that isn't.

    "Your child is smarter than everyone else?" Answer: Gifted classes and schools.
    "Your child runs faster than everyone else?" Answer: Becomes an athlete of some sort.
    "Your child fights better than everyone else?" Answer: Keep it away please, it's a female.

    I'm pretty sure it's been said earlier in the thread, that if he wins "oh, well he's a guy, he had an advantage" and if he loses either he'll be made fun of for losing to a girl or he can say that he took it easy on her. Either way, I don't think this is fulfilling or fun competition.
    I'm sure you don't feel that way. Do you have a daughter, by any chance? Would you feel mad at her if she beat a boy at something? Would you think of her as this agent of trauma that made that poor boy go through hell just so that she could do something?

    Or would you just be proud of her that she set out do something, stuck to it, and did it, and #$%^ what everyone else thinks?

    People get embarrassed in high school all the time.. They're not lowly sacks of !@#$ just because something "bad" happened in high school. He'd get over it. And who cares if anyone says, "Well, she lost because he had the advantage"? She'd know she did her best, and she'd be okay with those results. The problem is, I don't get why men can't be the same way. It's a SPORT. There's something called SPORTSMANSHIP. I know, they taught us it in like.... 1st grade.

    This excuse is a weak one, at best.

    It is entirely possible that you're in my intellectual league, though that is constrained by genetics independent of gender.


    If you're physically able to compete with men, odds are you'll be near or at the top of whatever sport you're playing [assuming you're in a female league]. What would be wrong with being at the top of your sport for your gender?
    Are you even an athlete? Wouldn't you just want to be the top?? Why would you stop at the bar, when you can raise it? Is this even a serious question? "Why can't you just be satisfied with what you've been given?" Because everyone wants more. Athletes want to know their limits, absolutely. It's the way it's always been.

    Why do you insist on trying to put women in the same athletic group of competition as men?
    I don't insist on it. Again, that mentality is showing again. I'm not insisting anything. I'm not saying, "YOU WOMEN! Stop right there and go compete with the men, you ninnies!! Stop #$%^ing around with those ponies and @#$%!"

    But if a girl has the ability, and the desire, to compete against men. I don't see why she should be stopped. Do men really fall to pieces so easily? Are they so fragile that they'll be traumatized for life if they have to compete against a woman? I don't think this is the case.. I think men are tougher than ya'll are letting on.

    You don't see men striving to get into women's leagues.
    That's because the mentality I'm preaching about doesn't allow you to.. if you followed cheerleading/high school dancing more closely, you'd see it there. Men striving to be more female-like in order to be better at the sport. There aren't many things that the mentality has given females to BE good at... and thus, you don't really see it. Because it doesn't really exist.

    And your example actually makes perfect sense, if there was some sort of proven gender advantage for running that was in favor of women. I'm not sure where you think the logic breaks down.
    You're using genetics just to let them serve a small piece of your points and forgetting the rest.. If a boy was born bigger, stronger, and faster, you're like "Hell yeah stick him in wrestling! He'll be great!" Put the girl in there instead, and you're like "Well.... No.. I just.. .noo..."

    About even would mean neither of us go for below the belt.


    Are any of you here athletic?
    Why does that have anything to do with anything? "Oh, if you're not athletic you won't understand! " It doesn't invalidate the conversation at hand if we are or are not. I was at one point in time, and declined later on in life. Is that sufficient for you?

    Eh; my brother went to UNL, and he REALLY wanted to be on the rifle team there - due to rules about having an equal number of men's and women's teams, there wasn't a men's team. however, since it was a women's team he was not allowed to join either. So yes, sometimes it sucks and you don't get to do what you've wanted to. My brother didn't make a stink about it, or insist that he be allowed to join the Women's team.
    He should have. It happened at my high school, and we had male dancers on the squad. It turned out they could dance really well, and they were given great slots outside of high school for being recognized. We had males on the Colorguard, cheerleading squad, and the dance crews. We didn't fall to pieces. The men said they had a right to do those activities and if the school didn't accomodate them in some way they needed to be in the female teams. Our school board agreed. CHOOSING not to make a fuss doesn't mean it's the absolute right thing to do. Imagine if blacks just said " :c well, they didn't have a school for us already.. so... I guess we just don't get educated. No sense in making a fuss." Instead, they did the right thing and insisted.

    I don't know why you think insisting is such an ugly word. You've said it with negativity throughout the entire post.

    Regarding taking a girl seriously in competition, when I played Coed intramurals I always took the girls seriously, at first. They just rarely presented an even remotely serious challenge. I don't enjoy being in competition with anyone who doesn't present a serious challenge. I hate winning easily.
    Imagine if the whole world judged an entire group of people based on the microscopic interactions with a handful?
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  2. #42
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Go watch the Olympics and compare the men's and women's events. Both genders at the height of conditioning and training, and the men still consistently outperform women in just about everything where physical power/strength is the main factor. ...

    Regarding taking a girl seriously in competition, when I played Coed intramurals I always took the girls seriously, at first. They just rarely presented an even remotely serious challenge. I don't enjoy being in competition with anyone who doesn't present a serious challenge. I hate winning easily.
    But I'll bet the women in the Olympics could kick your ass. In fact, unless you yourself are an Olympian or a national champion, you probably wouldn't have to go that far up the ladder of women's sports to find a woman who could kick your ass.

    Think of two bell curves, one with a median peak further along the x axis of strength than the other. Sure, the men's bell curve is further along, but it doesn't mean that every man can beat every woman, it just means that the average man can beat the average woman, same at the top end.

    I think that's one of the points @kyuuei is trying to make. Sure, you'd have to be higher up the ladder among females to compete physically against males, but so be it, that's where she is, and that's what she wants to do. Especially since there is no team for women's wrestling.

  3. #43
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    When you put it that way, I see your point. In the case of not having any other choice (since apparently women's wrestling isn't common) I think I can see why a girl would want to compete. I could even see how I could respect it. I just object to it because I prefer seeing things as evenly matched as possible.
    As far as I can see, this is evenly matched as possible. This girl was good enough to make the boys' team, she was good enough to make state championships, and she's competing only with boys who are close to her size. If she wants to continue with wrestling in college she'll probably find more opportunity for women there, but sometimes playing with the boys is the only option in high school if a girl wants to participate in an overwhelmingly male-dominated sport. I really see nothing wrong with having some co-ed opportunities and letting "chips fall where they may" as @Magic Poriferan put it. Will there be as many females as males who are top performers? Very unlikely, but so what? The girls who do advance to a certain level still deserve to be there.


    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    But I'll bet the women in the Olympics could kick your ass. In fact, unless you yourself are an Olympian or a national champion, you probably wouldn't have to go that far up the ladder of women's sports to find a woman who could kick your ass.

    Think of two bell curves, one with a median peak further along the x axis of strength than the other. Sure, the men's bell curve is further along, but it doesn't mean that every man can beat every woman, it just means that the average man can beat the average woman, same at the top end.

    I think that's one of the points @kyuuei is trying to make. Sure, you'd have to be higher up the ladder among females to compete physically against males, but so be it, that's where she is, and that's what she wants to do. Especially since there is no team for women's wrestling.
    Exactly.

    At the Olympic level, the very, very best male athletes in the whole world consistently outperform the very, very best female athletes in the whole world, in most sports. But we aren't talking about the Olympic level, or the very, very best athletes in the world. We're talking about high school kids. In a group of average (or even somewhat above average) Joes and Janes, there is going to be a lot more variability and overlap. Ever looked at the results of say, a local 5k run? Normally they have sex and age categories (since generally, young people and males are faster), sometimes heavier runners have their own classes (since generally, people above a certain weight tend to be slower). But if you look at the overall results, there is still a ton of overlap. Lots of women have faster times than lots of men, lots of people in their forties or fifties have faster times than lots of people in their twenties. You can't automatically know who's the better runner based on age and sex.

  4. #44
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    You can't automatically know who's the better runner based on age and sex.
    This.

    This is why Wanderer's use of genetics is frustrating-- Genetics ALSO explain that "there are a variety of men and women who can perform well at a variety of tasks." And yet, his focus so heavily on "the average woman is smaller and weaker than the average man" that that's the ONLY side he sees. You can't see one side of the coin without knowing there's another side that's just as viable and capable of being landed on.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

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