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  1. #31
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Uhhh....no. My reasons are as follows

    1) I'm afraid of hurting her in someway
    2) I'm a really skinny guy and don't like getting into scraps much anyway because I usually lose
    3) In the third grade I picked on a girl once and she body slammed me. Literally. She picked me up, WWE style, flipped over and threw me back down. I've been a little afraid of fighting with girls since then
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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  2. #32
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yeah, but it's about the standards WITHIN YOUR community, and what you are or are not desensitized to. You've trained with this and had experience with mixed gender sparring, he hasn't.
    It isn't just the army.. Before I was in the army we wrestled inter-gender, just as friends. We played tackle football, or dodgeball, it wasn't thought of twice. If the girls didn't want to play, they just sat out, no one thought twice of it. It just isn't sexual automatically just because a woman enters the field..

    I suppose we ought to have just not integrated whites and blacks in small town schools because their socialization was different in the 50s, by these principles. They had no experience with going to school with blacks.. but the government did what they thought was right and said, "Well. About time they got some experience." I don't think that principle is too far off from this.

    Females are becoming a part of every facet of the world more and more--things typically for men in the past are not anymore. Fighting is coed. Wrestling is coed. Sports have just as many able female athletes as males. It's just the way the world is.. The world is finding out that we're not as different as we put emphasis on.

    More to the point, if he's from a background where physical contact with the opposite gender is rare/fleeting/automatically considered sexual (which, judging by what he said I would surmise as much) then it would be HIGHLY unusual for him to be in that kind of close physical contact with a girl. It's about what is normal in *your* experience and in your community.
    Again. What's normal isn't always what's right, nor does "normal" justify anything. If he feels uncomfortable with women wrestling.. maybe he should think about not wrestling. Or maybe he should consider learning how to merge principles together. Maybe the sport is just a bit too extreme for him. He's entitled to a personal opinion.. I never said he wasn't. But I'm not going to stop doing something I have every right to do just because someone else doesn't agree with it. Nor should this girl. It shouldn't be, "Well, I wonder if we should have girls wrestle, someone may be offended by touching them..." It should be, "This is the way it's going to be. If you're offended, there are plenty of other sports in high school you can try out for. We're not going to hold people back anymore."

    This kid was sticking to his principles. Don't hate on him for it
    I don't hate HIM. I hate the principles of it all. I feel like those principles, seated THAT deeply in that kid, are never going to leave.. and his kids are probably going to have it too. And will any of those men take a female wrestler seriously? Doubt it.

    People take a common rule of thumb so seriously it's ridiculous. "Be nice to girls, don't hit girls, etc." These are GENERALIZATIONS, that have exceptions, even in religious senses.. The Bible says "Thou shall not kill" but there are exceptions to that pretty intense rule. It's just easier to say the rule itself, and know the exceptions. People instead just hear the rule, and never put logic towards the exceptions. That sort of blind adhesion is what causes so much drama.

    It's why there's crazy people picketing dead soldiers funerals.

    Men are not women, women are not men.
    Don't give me the kindergarten cop speech, please.

    Physically, you are a female, and while you are equal you are NOT the same as a male. There are significant psychological and physiological differences. Physically, women are smaller than males, and tend to be weaker. In some species the reverse is true (Falcons, for example) but for humans the opposite is true; check the wikipedia article on sexual dimorphism if you don't believe me, and then more specifically check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_dif...nd_muscle_mass

    Females of the human species are smaller and physically weaker. You can be stronger than a guy pound for pound [usually not the case] but, still, if you're only 120 and he's 180... yeah. No.
    I don't see what *my* physiological 'differences' has to do with any of this. You're not going to CONVINCE me that I'm a girl and that I don't have a penis--it's a well known fact already mate. But at the end of the day.. You said I'm equal. And if this is the case....

    ... Than the woman was fit to be in the wrestling ring, and had the skill and experience to be put up against her opponent. So all this nonsense you're saying just backs up what I'm saying: That these "It's innappropriate to be harsh towards a woman" rules society has are generalized rules with obvious exceptions and loopholes. Just because many women are smaller and weaker does not mean that EVERY woman is, and it certainly doesn't mean that every woman should be held back as a result. I highly doubt any high school, especially one that takes wrestling so seriously, would put a girl against an opponent that she would be completely demolished by.

    And apparently, no one can even TRY on a co-ed team, according to you that'd just be awful decision making.

    I've sparred with women on multiple occasions [never wrestling - we're talking MMA striking and take-downs, etc.] and I've met exactly one woman who would be capable of kicking my ass, and she's a personal trainer who trains ALL the time. More to the point, I pulled my punches and had to [as one of them put it] "avoid hitting the breasticles"
    I'm sure there are more than one woman in the world capable of handing you your ass. You just know of one. Exceptions to the majority shouldn't be held back.. Rather, they should be highlighted. Imagine if you told an athlete, "No, I'm sorry, you can't play football. You run much faster than the other boys do... And that's just not normal." It just doesn't make any sense.

    As far as you pulling punches.. I doubt she tried to kick you in the junk, so I'd say you're about even in that department.
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  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Maybe the guy's dad was a wife-beater, and he doesn't want to flirt with that even for the sake of sport? I don't think that would be a terrible value to have, gender equality issues be fucked. Probably not though.
    Yeah, I adhere to the "molested by aliens" theory myself.
    But not really.

    @kyuuiei and @Xenon: great posts.

    I wouldn't hate on the kid per se, but I dislike the entrenched social and gender views he has been steeped in and now will continue to perpetuate to his own children, most likely. In one sense, people aren't their ideas; however, in another sense, ideas have no substance unless someone embodies them, and then they have power in the world. So it's difficult to truly separate people from their ideas.
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  4. #34
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yeah, but it's about the standards WITHIN YOUR community, and what you are or are not desensitized to. You've trained with this and had experience with mixed gender sparring, he hasn't.

    More to the point, if he's from a background where physical contact with the opposite gender is rare/fleeting/automatically considered sexual (which, judging by what he said I would surmise as much) then it would be HIGHLY unusual for him to be in that kind of close physical contact with a girl. It's about what is normal in *your* experience and in your community.
    And how do you get desensitized to something? How does something begin to feel normal? You do it and get some experience with it. That's why you see such a difference in attitude between people who've done mixed gender contact sports and those who haven't. Yes, it's not the norm to have this sort of physical contact between males and females, it's not the norm for men to be physically aggressive toward women, and it's going to take some getting used to. That doesn't mean it's "wrong" or that women should be barred from competing for the sake of men's comfort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    This kid was sticking to his principles. Don't hate on him for it
    Er...from most of your response it seems you were thinking his refusal to wrestle her was about his discomfort (he's not used to it, he can't help but see that sort of contact as sexual, etc.), not his "principles". I would guess it did have to do more with his discomfort, and the whole "against my values" line was the story he was telling himself and others. If he had simply owned up and said he was uncomfortable with it or felt weird about it, I wouldn't have held that against him much. He's young, he didn't expect to go up against a girl, so his discomfort is understandable. But instead, he declared it was against his beliefs to wrestle a girl because "wrestling could get violent". This particular girl has chosen to compete in that sport, she had qualified for the state tournament just as the boys had and presumably she was well aware of what wrestling is like. And she had chosen to compete. Saying that he forfeited because it was The Right Thing To Do is essentially saying that it was his job to make that decision for her, regardless of what she wanted. I have a hard time seeing that as anything other than condescendingly sexist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Men are not women, women are not men. Physically, you are a female, and while you are equal you are NOT the same as a male. There are significant psychological and physiological differences. Physically, women are smaller than males, and tend to be weaker. In some species the reverse is true (Falcons, for example) but for humans the opposite is true; check the wikipedia article on sexual dimorphism if you don't believe me, and then more specifically check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_dif...nd_muscle_mass

    Females of the human species are smaller and physically weaker. You can be stronger than a guy pound for pound [usually not the case] but, still, if you're only 120 and he's 180... yeah. No.
    Men and women are physically different??? OMG NO WAI!!!!!

    I'm not sure why you think anyone here doesn't "believe" in physical differences between males and females. Yes, men are generally larger and more muscular. No shit. How does that mean no female should be competing in any tournament with males, even if she's qualified for it fairly and shown herself to be competitive with them?

    As for your example of a 120 pound girl going up against a 180 pound guy...you do know they're classed by weight, right? She'd only go up against similarly sized guys. And again, the particular girl in question has shown herself to be competitive enough with males her size to make it to the state tournament, so it's quite a leap to say the guys have such an unfair advantage over her that the only right thing to do is to forfeit. And anyhow, do you apply that reasoning to other athletic competitions in which one competitor has a significant advantage over another? If one high school football team is clearly superior to another, are they morally obligated to forfeit any scheduled games against them because it's "only fair"? Please.

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    As for your example of a 120 pound girl going up against a 180 pound guy...you do know they're classed by weight, right? She'd only go up against similarly sized guys. And again, the particular girl in question has shown herself to be competitive enough with males her size to make it to the state tournament, so it's quite a leap to say the guys have such an unfair advantage over her that the only right thing to do is to forfeit. And anyhow, do you apply that reasoning to other athletic competitions in which one competitor has a significant advantage over another? If one high school football team is clearly superior to another, are they morally obligated to forfeit any scheduled games against them because it's "only fair"? Please.
    I monitor Yahoo sports articles daily, just as part of reading the news, and on occasion I've seen that... or someone pulls out some rule where an exceptional player on the middle-school level has been excluded because he just scores too many points.

    But typically what I see is that it's kind of shameful to not treat your opponents with the respect of playing the actual game as if they are contenders. I guess there are different schools of thought, but if someone wants to compete, then I think they have accepted the change of potentially being outclassed. That's not for the other person to decide, and it's kind of humiliating to not even be taken seriously.

    Wrestling, as you say, is a sport where actually competitors are closely matched due to the stringent weight requirements. A girl's weight might be allocated differently, but the reality is that I don't think this wrestler had another outlet for wrestling due to lack of female participation, so in order to play she had to compete in the men's division; it was her only option.
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  6. #36
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I don't see any reason to actively oppose mix-gender sporting events. Let the chips fall where they may.

    I wonder if it's possible for people to completely get over it, or if that's a pipe dream.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It isn't just the army.. Before I was in the army we wrestled inter-gender, just as friends. We played tackle football, or dodgeball, it wasn't thought of twice. If the girls didn't want to play, they just sat out, no one thought twice of it. It just isn't sexual automatically just because a woman enters the field..
    Yes, but again, what is standard for one community isn't for another. Dodgeball is a no contact sport (in my experience anyway) and I've NEVER seen a girl play tackle football - flag and two hand touch, yes, but aside from that.. and neither of those is wrestling.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I suppose we ought to have just not integrated whites and blacks in small town schools because their socialization was different in the 50s, by these principles. They had no experience with going to school with blacks.. but the government did what they thought was right and said, "Well. About time they got some experience." I don't think that principle is too far off from this.
    There's a huge difference between what is often viewed as a vaguely sexual activity, the outcome of which is highly dependent on physical size, and something as arbitrary and irrelevant as race.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Females are becoming a part of every facet of the world more and more--things typically for men in the past are not anymore. Fighting is coed. Wrestling is coed. Sports have just as many able female athletes as males. It's just the way the world is.. The world is finding out that we're not as different as we put emphasis on.
    Go watch the Olympics and compare the men's and women's events. Both genders at the height of conditioning and training, and the men still consistently outperform women in just about everything where physical power/strength is the main factor. Wrestling, boxing, etc. I'm not sure what fighting and wrestling you watch, because as far as I know real fighting does not mix genders. Maybe WWE does, but to call that real fighting is an amusing thought xD

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Again. What's normal isn't always what's right, nor does "normal" justify anything. If he feels uncomfortable with women wrestling.. maybe he should think about not wrestling. Or maybe he should consider learning how to merge principles together. Maybe the sport is just a bit too extreme for him. He's entitled to a personal opinion.. I never said he wasn't. But I'm not going to stop doing something I have every right to do just because someone else doesn't agree with it. Nor should this girl. It shouldn't be, "Well, I wonder if we should have girls wrestle, someone may be offended by touching them..." It should be, "This is the way it's going to be. If you're offended, there are plenty of other sports in high school you can try out for. We're not going to hold people back anymore."
    Or how about you not place someone where they don't belong. "There are plenty of other sports in high school you can try out for." Would we really put a guy into a traditionally female activity just because "well, there aren't any guys groups"? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't hate HIM. I hate the principles of it all. I feel like those principles, seated THAT deeply in that kid, are never going to leave.. and his kids are probably going to have it too. And will any of those men take a female wrestler seriously? Doubt it.
    What do you hate? That his values say "No, I'm not going to wrestle a girl" - I know plenty of guys who won't engage in physical violence [even of the sanctioned sport related kind] against a woman. I see nothing wrong with that mentality. Even if it wasn't "those values" and it was his discomfort with the idea of being in close contact with a girl like that, I think that is preferable to him enjoying said contact >.>

    The idea that a guy refuses to wrestle with a woman? Let's be real here. Women are not the physical equals of men. You will never see women as linebackers in the NFL. Not gonna happen. Men are physically far more suited to fighting than women are, and the sports that are simulating combat ought not be made coed. I'm pretty sure it's been said earlier in the thread, that if he wins "oh, well he's a guy, he had an advantage" and if he loses either he'll be made fun of for losing to a girl or he can say that he took it easy on her. Either way, I don't think this is fulfilling or fun competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't see what *my* physiological 'differences' has to do with any of this. You're not going to CONVINCE me that I'm a girl and that I don't have a penis--it's a well known fact already mate. But at the end of the day.. You said I'm equal. And if this is the case....

    ... Than the woman was fit to be in the wrestling ring, and had the skill and experience to be put up against her opponent. So all this nonsense you're saying just backs up what I'm saying: That these "It's innappropriate to be harsh towards a woman" rules society has are generalized rules with obvious exceptions and loopholes. Just because many women are smaller and weaker does not mean that EVERY woman is, and it certainly doesn't mean that every woman should be held back as a result. I highly doubt any high school, especially one that takes wrestling so seriously, would put a girl against an opponent that she would be completely demolished by.

    And apparently, no one can even TRY on a co-ed team, according to you that'd just be awful decision making.
    I wonder what physiological differences have to do with a physical sport where those differences are key.. hmmm....
    You're equal. Also different. You have the same rights as a person. It is entirely possible that you're in my intellectual league, though that is constrained by genetics independent of gender. That does not mean you are the same as a man. Just as I am not the same as a woman, and there are sports and activities that you will have the upper hand in. Hell yes it's awful decision making. None of you have ever played on coed teams, have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm sure there are more than one woman in the world capable of handing you your ass. You just know of one. Exceptions to the majority shouldn't be held back.. Rather, they should be highlighted. Imagine if you told an athlete, "No, I'm sorry, you can't play football. You run much faster than the other boys do... And that's just not normal." It just doesn't make any sense.
    Highlighted? If you're physically able to compete with men, odds are you'll be near or at the top of whatever sport you're playing [assuming you're in a female league]. What would be wrong with being at the top of your sport for your gender? Why do you insist on trying to put women in the same athletic group of competition as men? You don't see men striving to get into women's leagues.
    And your example actually makes perfect sense, if there was some sort of proven gender advantage for running that was in favor of women. I'm not sure where you think the logic breaks down.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    As far as you pulling punches.. I doubt she tried to kick you in the junk, so I'd say you're about even in that department.
    About even would mean neither of us go for below the belt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I monitor Yahoo sports articles daily, just as part of reading the news, and on occasion I've seen that... or someone pulls out some rule where an exceptional player on the middle-school level has been excluded because he just scores too many points.

    But typically what I see is that it's kind of shameful to not treat your opponents with the respect of playing the actual game as if they are contenders. I guess there are different schools of thought, but if someone wants to compete, then I think they have accepted the change of potentially being outclassed. That's not for the other person to decide, and it's kind of humiliating to not even be taken seriously.

    Wrestling, as you say, is a sport where actually competitors are closely matched due to the stringent weight requirements. A girl's weight might be allocated differently, but the reality is that I don't think this wrestler had another outlet for wrestling due to lack of female participation, so in order to play she had to compete in the men's division; it was her only option.
    Eh; my brother went to UNL, and he REALLY wanted to be on the rifle team there - due to rules about having an equal number of men's and women's teams, there wasn't a men's team. however, since it was a women's team he was not allowed to join either. So yes, sometimes it sucks and you don't get to do what you've wanted to. My brother didn't make a stink about it, or insist that he be allowed to join the Women's team.

    Regarding taking a girl seriously in competition, when I played Coed intramurals I always took the girls seriously, at first. They just rarely presented an even remotely serious challenge. I don't enjoy being in competition with anyone who doesn't present a serious challenge. I hate winning easily.

  8. #38
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    @Wanderer You're not getting the point at all here. If a male who is genetically born slight and decides he wants to compete, he is perfectly willing to accept that he will never be at the top of his field, but has his own reasons to compete. He will want to be treated the same as everybody else, and expects it as a human being and not as a man. If women are ever to be seen as equal, we need for women to be treated the same, even if she may be genetically limited to complete at the sport. By the same, I mean not given special treatment, either be allowed to compete when they can't make the cut, nor being held back on when doing whatever it is we're talking about doing.

    This is not some random girl forced to wrestle against her will, she made a conscious choice to compete, and that should be treated with respect. I don't blame the guy for being confused, as he isn't prepared, but if everything was right in the world, he should bring it.

  9. #39
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Eh; my brother went to UNL, and he REALLY wanted to be on the rifle team there - due to rules about having an equal number of men's and women's teams, there wasn't a men's team. however, since it was a women's team he was not allowed to join either. So yes, sometimes it sucks and you don't get to do what you've wanted to. My brother didn't make a stink about it, or insist that he be allowed to join the Women's team.
    Sounds like this topic just veered into the realm of sexism.

    Regarding taking a girl seriously in competition, when I played Coed intramurals I always took the girls seriously, at first. They just rarely presented an even remotely serious challenge. I don't enjoy being in competition with anyone who doesn't present a serious challenge. I hate winning easily.
    It's not really about you and how you feel about it. Would you appreciate having another guy look at you, decide you're not worth his investment and "hates winning easily," so he just won't even bother to engage you if you have signed up and committed to playing the sport?

    She made the cut, she fit the criteria, for whatever reason. It's not really up to you to decide whether she's "worth competing against," if obviously she has committed to it. Your task is to do your best in the competition, and let her make her own decisions.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    @Wanderer You're not getting the point at all here. If a male who is genetically born slight and decides he wants to compete, he is perfectly willing to accept that he will never be at the top of his field, but has his own reasons to compete. He will want to be treated the same as everybody else, and expects it as a human being and not as a man. If women are ever to be seen as equal, we need for women to be treated the same, even if she may be genetically limited to complete at the sport. By the same, I mean not given special treatment, either be allowed to compete when they can't make the cut, nor being held back on when doing whatever it is we're talking about doing.

    This is not some random girl forced to wrestle against her will, she made a conscious choice to compete, and that should be treated with respect. I don't blame the guy for being confused, as he isn't prepared, but if everything was right in the world, he should bring it.
    When you put it that way, I see your point. In the case of not having any other choice (since apparently women's wrestling isn't common) I think I can see why a girl would want to compete. I could even see how I could respect it. I just object to it because I prefer seeing things as evenly matched as possible.

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