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  1. #51
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    They're not the lead, but how about Naoto Shirogane from Persona 4 as a heroic INTJ?
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Don't worry, man. I got your back. This Victor guy sounds like a menace.
    Nahhh - he's a teddy bear.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #53
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Nahhh - he's a teddy bear.
    I think so too (don't tell Victor that though .

  4. #54
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    A Mole! A Mole!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Nahhh - he's a teddy bear.
    `The hour is come! Follow me!' said Mole, black and grim, brandishing his stick and shouting his awful war-cry, `A Mole! A Mole!'

  5. #55
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Can you give some examples of the strong female leads you identify with? Do you see any as INTJ, or does that even matter (do you tend to identify with your own type)?

    Yes, master plans are great, especially when the planner has the discipline to implement it properly. I tend to identify with the values of the rebels in these stories, but cringe at their methods. They are usually disorganized, undisciplined, and can't plan their way out of a paper bag. They prevail through a fortuitous combination of coincidence, spontaneous acts of daring, errors/defection from the "villain" side, and "sheer dumb luck". You have to go back to old shows like (original) Mission Impossible and even Hogan's Heroes for good guy groups who could implement a decent plan.
    Mostly the ones in video games and television. "Echo" from Dollhouse is a personal favorite of mine, as is Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop. Sadly, there aren't that many in the literature I read. A few sci-fi series, like the Vatta War bunch by Elizabeth Moon, have good female leads, but they're sort of few and far between. I don't think they're INTJs... I feel like most heroic protagonists are ExxJs by virtue of the stuff they do. I may be wrong, but that's the sense I get when I watch shows these days. There are a few IxxJs, but actual INTJs don't really make for good protagonists, I don't think.

    I think that's why I don't like the Rebels. They have A Cause, and most stories treat that Cause as the sole most important aspect of their faction. This means that when they win, it's because they had spirit (!) and not for any other reason. They have bad leaders, stupid plans, and they win simply because the author says they do. At the end of Star Wars, for example, they blow up the second Death Star and suddenly, they've won? No they haven't! There's an entire empire left to fight, and even the extended universe can't really explain their sudden and complete victory away.

    ...and if you really think about it, the Rebels are terrorists who are just as bad as the Empire is...

    Hogan's Heroes is a great example of "good guys with a plan," and one where I can finally feel good about liking them. Though I do feel bad for Schulz.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Mostly the ones in video games and television. "Echo" from Dollhouse is a personal favorite of mine, as is Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop. Sadly, there aren't that many in the literature I read. A few sci-fi series, like the Vatta War bunch by Elizabeth Moon, have good female leads, but they're sort of few and far between. I don't think they're INTJs... I feel like most heroic protagonists are ExxJs by virtue of the stuff they do. I may be wrong, but that's the sense I get when I watch shows these days. There are a few IxxJs, but actual INTJs don't really make for good protagonists, I don't think.
    Why not? Is there something inherent about the type that makes this bad in a literary sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    I think that's why I don't like the Rebels. They have A Cause, and most stories treat that Cause as the sole most important aspect of their faction. This means that when they win, it's because they had spirit (!) and not for any other reason. They have bad leaders, stupid plans, and they win simply because the author says they do. At the end of Star Wars, for example, they blow up the second Death Star and suddenly, they've won? No they haven't! There's an entire empire left to fight, and even the extended universe can't really explain their sudden and complete victory away.

    ...and if you really think about it, the Rebels are terrorists who are just as bad as the Empire is...
    Some would characterize the American colonists that way, once the revolution started. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. I like rebels who champion causes I would support, most of which concern civil liberties and social justice. A good example is the student rebels in Les Miserables. They certainly lived in a time and place where many inequities in society needed to be addressed, but their revolt was nothing more than a mass suicide. I never got much into the Star Wars story, so none of this is a commentary on that. It always seemed more like a war between political factions to me, rather than a true rebellion.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #57
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why not? Is there something inherent about the type that makes this bad in a literary sense?
    No, I actually think an INTJ in literature would (should, really) be more common. We have a lot of interesting inner world diatribes and discussions that, if handled properly, could actually work. We also have big plans that, when properly realized, could work to further the story and provide an decent character arc.

    In film, TV, and video games-- the ones without the silent protagonists, of course-- I feel like it's just impractical to go with introverts in most cases, especially NT introverts. Non-feeling introverts get the bad rap of being boring in that particular media, mostly because a lot of our dialog is internal and we're a great deal more reserved and more appropriately, kind of hard to easily relate to due to our rather composed, calculating exterior.

    The trite definition of heroes that most American media adheres to is the clever and charming team-building, rallying-cry extrovert, who blares his internal thoughts across the scenery. This isn't to say that there can't be more complex extroverted characters by any means, it's just the standard of the industry to default to the uninteresting ones since it's easier to go with a type that actually says very explicitly what they think.


    Some would characterize the American colonists that way, once the revolution started. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. I like rebels who champion causes I would support, most of which concern civil liberties and social justice. A good example is the student rebels in Les Miserables. They certainly lived in a time and place where many inequities in society needed to be addressed, but their revolt was nothing more than a mass suicide. I never got much into the Star Wars story, so none of this is a commentary on that. It always seemed more like a war between political factions to me, rather than a true rebellion.
    Oh, I agree. You can always look at it from both angles. I'm just tired of the trope-ridden assumption that the rebels are always right, simply for the sheer fact that they are rebels. There can be good and bad on both sides, and the student rebels are a good example of that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ego Reparate; Ob Me Non Deficiat.
    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  8. #58
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    No, I actually think an INTJ in literature would (should, really) be more common. We have a lot of interesting inner world diatribes and discussions that, if handled properly, could actually work. We also have big plans that, when properly realized, could work to further the story and provide an decent character arc.

    In film, TV, and video games-- the ones without the silent protagonists, of course-- I feel like it's just impractical to go with introverts in most cases, especially NT introverts. Non-feeling introverts get the bad rap of being boring in that particular media, mostly because a lot of our dialog is internal and we're a great deal more reserved and more appropriately, kind of hard to easily relate to due to our rather composed, calculating exterior.
    An interesting comparison between literature and visual media. Your observations make sense. Wouldn't the highlighted also lead INTJ characters to be boring villains, though? If so, it doesn't seem to stop the film industry from using them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Oh, I agree. You can always look at it from both angles. I'm just tired of the trope-ridden assumption that the rebels are always right, simply for the sheer fact that they are rebels. There can be good and bad on both sides, and the student rebels are a good example of that.
    If you view modern terrorist/militant groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban as rebels, we now have plenty of fodder for story lines in which the rebels are wrong, and it is the job of the "establishment" to put them out of business, or at least get them to mend their ways.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #59
    Rainy Day Member Ingrid in grids's Avatar
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    I have identified with different characters at different times in my life.

    I strongly identified with Katarina from the Swedish film "Pure" when I first saw it.


    And then also with Lucy from "Sleeping Beauty", but to a lesser extent.

  10. #60
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Too many stories have few worthwhile female characters of any type. Finding INTJ or even NT ones is even less likely. I have just always automatically identified with the male ones. It never mattered that they were male. The commonality of thinking styles, approach to the world, and the way I would just instantly grasp their internal perspective overrode the difference in sex, or any other differences for that matter.
    Interesting! Growing up, I definitely ended up internalizing a lot of stereotypically male values, especially those regarding strength/courage/protecting your loved ones in a particular sense, that implied a particular way of dealing with emotions. If I'd had more stereotypically female ESTJ role models, I probably would have been much less of a tomboy.

    (Of course, I don't mind this at all, in retrospect. Screw gender norms!)
    No, but the question was never explicitly posed. I suspect part of it is not so much that INTJs identify with villains, but that we often identify with INTJ characters, and they are often found among villains and antiheroes. I can't identify with a hero/protagonist just because they are the "good guy". If they are not the kind of good guy I would be in that situation, there is no rapport. With an (INTJ) villain, on the other hand, I might know I wouldn't make the same choices they did, but I might understand much better their motivations, how they see things, even how they feel in the various situations. Sometimes, though, the difference between me and them is mainly in their background and circumstances. As someone (you?) mentioned, they often have faced much more extreme problems and dire choices in their fictional lives than I ever will.
    That makes a lot of sense. Recently I discovered Les Mis*, and I relate a LOT to Javert, for similar reasons, i.e. his thought processes, his internal conflict. A general sense of, if my life had gone that direction -- i.e. if I'd been that misguided -- maybe I would have ended up somewhere similar.

    *To be fair, I knew it existed for a long time before then, but I didn't know what it was about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    I feel like most heroic protagonists are ExxJs by virtue of the stuff they do. I may be wrong, but that's the sense I get when I watch shows these days.

    I think that's why I don't like the Rebels. They have A Cause, and most stories treat that Cause as the sole most important aspect of their faction. This means that when they win, it's because they had spirit (!) and not for any other reason. They have bad leaders, stupid plans, and they win simply because the author says they do. At the end of Star Wars, for example, they blow up the second Death Star and suddenly, they've won? No they haven't! There's an entire empire left to fight, and even the extended universe can't really explain their sudden and complete victory away.
    I actually think that the second paragraph is a better example of SP/NP heroes... Luke's probably an IxFP, and so's Harry Potter, who also fits that trope that you're talking about. It annoys me, too; I tend to feel like heroes in those sorts of stories are far too impulsive, and will oftentimes outright ignore their resident Voice Of Reason (e.g. Hermione, xSTJ par excellence).

    Regardless... Whoever those ExxJs are that you have in mind, I must not have ever related to them much, b/c I can't think of any at the moment. Except for various ExFJ Disney princesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    No, I actually think an INTJ in literature would (should, really) be more common. We have a lot of interesting inner world diatribes and discussions that, if handled properly, could actually work. We also have big plans that, when properly realized, could work to further the story and provide an decent character arc.
    It's true. I was reading a book recently -- "Ready Player One" by Ernest Cline -- where the main character was a quintessential INTJ. Always had a plan, always calculating, very cerebral, but also sympathetic and likable. But he's in the minority, and I can't think of many other INTJ heroes (especially not in movies/TV).
    Non-feeling introverts get the bad rap of being boring in that particular media, mostly because a lot of our dialog is internal and we're a great deal more reserved and more appropriately, kind of hard to easily relate to due to our rather composed, calculating exterior.
    Maybe INTx, but the quintessential badass action (anti)hero is ISTP, right? Like Wolverine. Maybe it's the bolded that's key, here; ISTPs don't give off the calculating, cerebral vibe in quite the same way.
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