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Mixed gender sports teams.

Magic Poriferan

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Well, people certainly aren't ever going to get over their weird biases about how to play around the other gender if they never play around the other gender. It's something that would change with time.

I am well aware of the physical differences between men and women, but I wonder how much the gap can be bridged and how much a sense of place is involved in peoples' performance. Part of what gives me this idea is the hyperbole in the Olympics. Athletes so consistently get better with each games that it makes me wonder how much a person's physical abilities are based on the standard that is set for them. Many records now would have seemed ludicrous 50 years ago, but it's the result of each generation having no motivation other than the do better than the previous (it's worth noting that there are cases where the current womens' record beats a men's record from the past). It makes me wonder how much a competitive woman who may also receive enormous financial rewards could measure up to male athletes.
 

rav3n

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While there's the odd woman who can compete on a professional or amateur level like the Olympics, most female athletes can't compete with men. We're not built that way.

100 meter dash:

Fastest man - 9.58
Fastest woman - 10.49
 

Randomnity

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Well, people certainly aren't ever going to get over their weird biases about how to play around the other gender if they never play around the other gender. It's something that would change with time.
Like I said, I've been playing on mixed gender teams for years, with/against other people who've played on mixed gender teams for years, and there's still these "weird ideas" about how to play against females. It doesn't change automatically just by throwing men and women on one team. Can it be changed deliberately? Maybe, but you'd have to do some real thinking on how (and I think you'd need to completely change society's view of women at the same time).

I am well aware of the physical differences between men and women, but I wonder how much the gap can be bridged and how much a sense of place is involved in peoples' performance. Part of what gives me this idea is the hyperbole in the Olympics. Athletes so consistently get better with each games that it makes me wonder how much a person's physical abilities are based on the standard that is set for them. Many records now would have seemed ludicrous 50 years ago, but it's the result of each generation having no motivation other than the do better than the previous (it's worth noting that there are cases where the current womens' record beats a men's record from the past). It makes me wonder how much a competitive woman who may also receive enormous financial rewards could measure up to male athletes.

A lot of the improvements are due to better training programs, better equipment/clothing, better health care and physiotherapy, better nutrition, better coaching, etc. Motivation by the old record might play a small role, but I doubt it's the dominant factor. Women can look up the men's records if they want to use that as motivation, lol.

The financial support is a factor to be sure. But then, why should they fund the woman if there's a more skilled male athlete who would benefit more from the money? If there weren't women's teams, I'd bet women would get less funding than now, not more.
 

Magic Poriferan

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While there's the odd woman who can compete on a professional or amateur level like the Olympics, most female athletes can't compete with men. We're not built that way.

100 meter dash:

Fastest man - 9.58
Fastest woman - 10.49

I know that contemporary figures show the gap. Incidentally running is probably the worst due to womens' hips.

Like I said, I've been playing on mixed gender teams for years, with/against other people who've played on mixed gender teams for years, and there's still these "weird ideas" about how to play against females. It doesn't change automatically just by throwing men and women on one team. Can it be changed deliberately? Maybe, but you'd have to do some real thinking on how (and I think you'd need to completely change society's view of women at the same time).

You never know what people look to. We could ask how many people let their idea of sports be affected by what they seem represented in professional leagues.

A lot of the improvements are due to better training programs, better equipment/clothing, better health care and physiotherapy, better nutrition, better coaching, etc. Motivation by the old record might play a small role, but I doubt it's the dominant factor. Women can look up the men's records if they want to use that as motivation, lol.

But they probably don't look to it because it is simply deemed as a separate matter. Psychology is tricky.

The financial support is a factor to be sure. But then, why should they fund the woman if there's a more skilled male athlete who would benefit more from the money? If there weren't women's teams, I'd bet women would get less funding than now, not more.

Well, Jock sort of pointed this one out. If a woman did prove herself capable of competing with men in the professional leagues, she'd be a huge splash. The reward won't necessarily be coming directly from their employer, nor would it come right away.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Like I said, I've been playing on mixed gender teams for years, with/against other people who've played on mixed gender teams for years, and there's still these "weird ideas" about how to play against females. It doesn't change automatically just by throwing men and women on one team. Can it be changed deliberately? Maybe, but you'd have to do some real thinking on how (and I think you'd need to completely change society's view of women at the same time).



A lot of the improvements are due to better training programs, better equipment/clothing, better health care and physiotherapy, better nutrition, better coaching, etc. Motivation by the old record might play a small role, but I doubt it's the dominant factor. Women can look up the men's records if they want to use that as motivation, lol.

The financial support is a factor to be sure. But then, why should they fund the woman if there's a more skilled male athlete who would benefit more from the money? If there weren't women's teams, I'd bet women would get less funding than now, not more.

"Weird ideas"?
 

Randomnity

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Like not playing as hard against girls, stopping to help them up even if they crash into you (as a clumsy girl I see this a lot), profuse apologizing at any contact, etc.
 

entropie

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Back in the days we the boys were always vouching for a mixed game but the girls never wanted. Wonder why... :D
 

Qlip

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This is not really a sport, but I did train with women in Hapkido. At first it did feel wrong to not cut them some slack, but the women were there to actually learn how to kick ass and how to defend themselves, I was doing them a disservice. They didn't appreciate me holding back.

There were surprises when dealing with the fairer sex. There was crying. That's when I learned that more often than not women cry in frustration, instead of wanting to hit something like guys tend to do. That was confusing. Also physical proximity tended to have a bigger effect with some of the ladies.
 

Qlip

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I'm curious about this. What do you mean, specifically?

It seemed made a bigger emotional impression. You could see that for some some women it was a bit stressful to be in close quarters and physically manipulating another person. I always tried to be reassuring before training, but I never unnecessarily held back. But one surprising event is when our teacher had us training with moves at gunpoint with wooden guns, and I had the gun and was instructed to be forceful and loud. I actually ended up making one woman cry. I felt pretty bad about it. Another time I was doing groundwork and another woman just totally freaked out and managed to get me on my back while ripping parts of my heavy duty uniform in the process. She was crying afterward.

It may not be guys in general, though. I never shook the idea that I might unconsciously exemplify a 'bad man' archetype to your average Caucasian Midwestern woman. It didn't help me that I was the one they put up front and center in demos, usually being thrown by a diminutive female, because it looked impressive... and maybe I looked like I could be an aggressor.
 

Shimmy

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In physical sports I think mixed sex (words have gender, people have sex) sports teams are a stupid idea. The difference in physique is just too much. To illustrate: my four person men's rowing team outrows our club's women's eight. Even if every team had to have the same number of women in it. I still wouldn't enjoy rowing as much simply because we'd go slower, and the women wouldn't enjoy it because they couldn't keep up.

If you're so keen on integration of the sexes we should look into mixed sex locker rooms :devil:.
 

Randomnity

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In physical sports I think mixed sex (words have gender, people have sex)....
Actually, people have gender and sex whereas words just have gender.

sports teams are a stupid idea. The difference in physique is just too much. To illustrate: my four person men's rowing team outrows our club's women's eight. Even if every team had to have the same number of women in it. I still wouldn't enjoy rowing as much simply because we'd go slower, and the women wouldn't enjoy it because they couldn't keep up.

If you're so keen on integration of the sexes we should look into mixed sex locker rooms :devil:.
while I agree at the pro level (since the best males will be better than the best females at most physical activities), I have to point out that this is definitely not the case at the rec level. While there are still rules (2 girls on the field at once), there are lots of girls who play better than guys, since there are so many different skill (and fitness) levels all playing together.

I don't think you were necessarily arguing that, just had to stick up for mixed sport teams a bit (I would seriously hate to be stuck to an all-girls team for many reasons).
 

RaptorWizard

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If you're so keen on integration of the sexes we should look into mixed sex locker rooms :devil:.

The legendary Greek Philosophers I have read shared similar ideas on the integration of the naked sexes.

Yes, and the most ridiculous thing of all will be the sight of women naked in the palaestra, exercising with the men, especially when they are no longer young; they certainly will not be a vision of beauty, any more than the enthusiastic old men who in spite of wrinkles and ugliness continue to frequent the gymnasia.

source - http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.6.v.html
 

sprinkles

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If you can keep up I don't see why not, even if that means that only exceptional women play.

Getting women on a team just because they are women is stupid, because they don't let guys on the team just because they are guys either - you have to make the cut.
 

Randomnity

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Oh hey this thread again.

If you can keep up I don't see why not, even if that means that only exceptional women play.

Getting women on a team just because they are women is stupid, because they don't let guys on the team just because they are guys either - you have to make the cut.
This means that the status quo will continue, and essentially no women will play, but with the added bonus of cut funding for women's teams since "they can play with the guys if they make the cut".

I'm in favour of co-ed teams at a level where skill, intellligence and condition can make up for biological handicap (I play at that level, after all) but for the pros I really don't think it would be a productive strategy. There's a huge difference between a man in ideal physical condition and a woman in ideal physical condition - when you're a pro athlete, a tiny difference in capability can make you the best or cut you from the team. Allowing women to play would have very questionable benefits and real drawbacks.

I guess in the case of a sport that doesn't have a women's team, it might be ok, but I still think it would discourage most women from playing, rather than encouraging them to strive for that mostly-impossible goal.
 

sprinkles

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This means that the status quo will continue, and essentially no women will play, but with the added bonus of cut funding for women's teams since "they can play with the guys if they make the cut".

It only works that way because that's how the spectator machine works. That's a problem with team ownership and the franchise being a money maker rather than some inherent gender problem.

Women's teams don't HAVE to be cut but they are because people are less interested in watching them on the whole. That isn't the fault of those who want to play competitively in the game itself, or of those who just want to play.
 
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