Game of Thrones!

[ceecee]

Cersei's Prophecy

Well, the kids are all taken care of -- "gold for their hair, gold for their shrouds."

The Valonqar is the most interesting part now -- the term means "little brother" -- as it went thusly: "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

For a long time, the assumption was that this would be Tyrion, with a contentious relationship and the blatant enmity between the two (and where Cersei almost managed to get Tyrion executed in Season 4).

Now, thematically, it's become more and more plausible that it could be her incestuous lover twin (who is slightly younger than her) Jaime, mainly because of how it's established from Episode 1 of "what Jaime is willing to do for love" rather flippantly, when he disables Bran by callously pushing him out a window to preserve the secret of the twins' incest, and you'd think this might get revisited / spun around in some way.

- Jaime is ethically noble on some level and willing to break a commitment when the lives of many are at stake -- such as breaking his vow as King's Guard to stop Aerys II from destroying King's Landing with wildfire. Brienne sees the noble aspect to his character, and you see him respond to that. It doesn't help that Cersei has just killed a large number of people using wildfire.

- Jaime's largest point of admiration for Cersei was how she (like Catelyn Stark) would do anything for her babies... but here Cersei has essentially sealed the doom of her last child -- also Jaime's child -- and without a tear climbs upon the throne to claim power. Essentially at this point, Cersei seems to have resigned herself to the inevitable and is now going for broke; there will be no reining her in, her children were her focus before but now they are all gone and she has nothing to live for.

- The look upon Jaime's face at her coronation is unreadable, aside from the "WTF have you done???" She might have in the short-term saved herself and rid the city of The Sparrow and his militants, but she has created a host of difficulties in the long run and essentially ruined the Lannisters in terms of the longevity of the House.

The main difficulty is that Jaime isn't wrapping one of his hands around anyone's throat -- it's made of metal -- but I suppose it depends on how literal the prophecy is.

But essentially you seem the twins moving in opposite directions now. Jaime is moving away from his dark and irresponsible reputation to act more nobly and to preserve life (which you saw flickers of potential for when he broke his vow to murder Aerys) -- and he's even been taking actions to prevent bloodshed as much as possible on the battlefield -- while Cersei is moving away from machinations in the dark and the imposed constraints of protecting her children to simply wielding power with impunity.

How can love survive?

Yeah, I still think aside from Lyanna telling off the northern leaders towering around her, one of the best scenes was between Cersei and Unella (or whatever her name is). Karma is a bitch. The ambiguity of outcome probably made it better -- my imagination is probably worse than what they could show. Was I really rooting for Cersei there? It was a deliciously acted scene.

as far as Margaery:

That sucked. I really liked Margaery. And she was wily, and smart, and socially cunning. But she was young and not necessarily ruthless -- and Cersei has had years to stew inside The Game. She will go to the wall, without apology. Margaery was a deadly enemy and threatened to take her sons from her, and Margaery has also arranged things to destroy Cersei via the Sparrow's faith while extracting herself. So Cersei took her out without even playing the social games; she just did something so outrageous, without regard for other life, that Margaery had no way to respond in time.

In her favor, she knew something was wrong shortly before the end. The Sparrow was the fool. That didn't save Margaery, but she played well while simply just not being experienced enough to see this coming + have a backup plan. Imagine if Margaery had another twenty years of game playing under her belt; she might have become more like Cersei. But in this case, alas. It reminds me slightly of that bit in the original Robocop movie, where Bob Morton sees himself as the new up and comer, but wily old Dick Jones takes the game to another level of ruthlessness and finishes him off when he least expects it... because age/experience and lack of scruples counts for something.

Margaery did win in the sense that she actually had Tommen. Cersei thought she could save her son; but she had already lost him. She didn't predict Tommen's next action and thought she still had him under wing.

haha you were really rooting for Cersei, I was too. I think the buildup of bad things happening to her had a blow out (literally) and now we can go back to hating her because....

Dany, the Unsullied and the Dothraki are coming
The dragons are coming
The king of the north is coming
Winter is coming

Are we all ready for the big wedding that's going to happen next season? It has to. That's why she broke up with Daario Naharis and even said a marriage alliance is the only way. There's really only one choice but we'll have to get over that Targaryen sort of incest thing first.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what Cersei's gameplan after this is. What does she even have on the table? "You and me against the world," was what I think she had suggested to Jaime, but even that might break down...

I think Dany has an obvious choice of a partner as well.

Of course, as always, he knows nothing.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what Cersei's gameplan after this is. What does she even have on the table? "You and me against the world," was what I think she had suggested to Jaime, but even that might break down...

I think Dany has an obvious choice of a partner as well.

Of course, as always, he knows nothing.

I think their half/brother sister status will be revealed (through Brann) and in turn, lead to a co-rule of the Iron Throne (fire and ice) but no marriage.

This will unite the many houses, a la democracy - as north/south have respective representatives.

I am curious as to Dorn leader woman (don't know her name) and Olenna partnership will present itself. Will they enact revenge before or after arrival of Dani/Theon/etc?

That timing will be everything!

 

[Riva]

I think their half/brother sister status will be revealed (through Brann) and in turn, lead to a co-rule of the Iron Throne (fire and ice) but no marriage.

This will unite the many houses, a la democracy - as north/south have respective representatives.

I am curious as to Dorn leader woman (don't know her name) and Olenna partnership will present itself. Will they enact revenge before or after arrival of Dani/Theon/etc?

That timing will be everything!

The ships Danny were using, I thought some of them were supplied by the Tyrells and the Martells??

Because the Greyjoys didn't bring that many ships and I assume Varys requested for ships after he met those two groups (Martells and Tyrells) after his dramatic entrance.

Varys was in the ship with Danny in the last scene. I assume he went back to meet her after convincing those two houses to give him ships which would in return help them destroy their common enemy the Lannisters.

So those ships I think were a contribution from the Tyrells, Martells and Greyjoys.

At this point I like Jamie (for his character development) and Cersei (due to pity) too much to want the Lannisters to lose their bloodline. You can't help but feel sorry for Cersei.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think their half/brother sister status will be revealed (through Brann) and in turn, lead to a co-rule of the Iron Throne (fire and ice) but no marriage.

This will unite the many houses, a la democracy - as north/south have respective representatives.

I am curious as to Dorn leader woman (don't know her name) and Olenna partnership will present itself. Will they enact revenge before or after arrival of Dani/Theon/etc?

That timing will be everything!

Ellaria Sand, I believe -- Oberyn's lover. She's a Sand, so she's a bastard like Jon Snow is/was. But like Snow, she's now in charge of Dorne, I guess.

My impression from the meeting since Varys showed up there (and then shows up back on Dany's boat) is that he arranged for Dany to land in Dorne. Her army is horse riders. This fits with the terrain in Dorne. They can dismount there and gear up for conquest; trying to attack King's Landing by ship could be bad if they still have some wildfire left, as Stannis found out... and yes, apparently there are caches of wildfire floating around. Why would someone want an entire army of nomadic horsemen attacking King's Landing by boat? I'd get them on land, then let them savage the place.

So their revenge is that Dorne will be the staging ground for Dany's troops, and I assume Tyrell will deprive King's Landing of foods/produce and instead feed Dany's army.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Ellaria Sand, I believe -- Oberyn's lover. She's a Sand, so she's a bastard like Jon Snow is/was. But like Snow, she's now in charge of Dorne, I guess.

My impression from the meeting since Varys showed up there (and then shows up back on Dany's boat) is that he arranged for Dany to land in Dorne. Her army is horse riders. This fits with the terrain in Dorne. They can dismount there and gear up for conquest; trying to attack King's Landing by ship could be bad if they still have some wildfire left, as Stannis found out... and yes, apparently there are caches of wildfire floating around. Why would someone want an entire army of nomadic horsemen attacking King's Landing by boat? I'd get them on land, then let them savage the place.

So their revenge is that Dorne will be the staging ground for Dany's troops, and I assume Tyrell will deprive King's Landing of foods/produce and instead feed Dany's army.

Ah. Thanks! I forgot about Varys presence! this makes sense.
[MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]

I do love Cersei for her complexity. She's one of few female characters who have ascended through ranks by sheer cunning ruthlessness. (As opposed to Dani, who has mystical power, which makes it so much easier to be morally upright )

 

[Totenkindly]

Not exactly sure how to phrase it about Cersei at the moment. I routinely despised her for the first few seasons because of her spitefulness, but I've gotten a better grasp of her in the last two seasons and even can empathize with her.

She's essentially a woman in a world where women don't easily have power, and even what power she etched out for herself wasn't enough to keep her in control or save her children -- the one thing society told her was her "role" and also the only people she really cared about besides Jaime.

The last two seasons have been kind of a triumph for her because she's had so little to work with and yet somehow has managed to claw herself out from that deep hole and actually destroy those who were destroying and/or humiliating her. The end still appears inevitable at this point, she just doesn't have the resources she needs to win (and she has been very self-defeating in the past); but she's become a lot more human and accessible in the process of our seeing her hit rock-bottom.

Based on everything that has happened at this point, I will probably feel like her story was tragic by the end of the series, versus just despising her like I despised Joffrey or Ramsay. Which is an achievement of sorts.

 

[Qre:us]

Well, that started off with a bang...
Really enjoyed this episode. Definitely one of the top memorable episodes to date. So many game changers/shifting of the players on the board. Very interesting stuff. However, it wasn't without its minor disappointments.

First off,

[MENTION=5645]Qre:us[/MENTION]

Well... damn. That's really insightful.
I hope this is one of those cases where the audience isn't more insightful than the showrunners and they actually do something like that.

Crossing my fingers but not holding my breath. I learned my lesson from the hopes I put into the Arya/Faceless Men S/L. SMDH.

Thank goodness I didn't hold my breath on that one.

They still played it too obvious, and didn't explore any potential layering to that plotline, like tying it in with Jon. Ah well. Teaches me to have my flights of fancy with the breadcrumbs GoT throws. I never learn!!

Disappointed. And slightly confused about the statute of limitations in GoT land (or distinct lack of). Can the Red Woman be truly tried for it as a 'crime'? When the commander at the time sanctioned it? By Davoos' logic, it's a crime because it didn't work (I know he was going totally by emotions in that scene, not by logic, but Jon should have stepped in, Mr. Potential Chosen One/Leader). So, if it did work (i.e., Stannis was victorious), would it not be a crime? *confused* What does this mean for acts people commit, under one ruler, and if the ruler changes (as it seems so likely in this world), who is in opposition to it, should all who committed the act under the previous ruler be tried as criminals if the new ruler considers the act to be a crime? Reminds me of the High Sparrow dilemma or Dany with the Slavers (there, at least, she had the common sense to not try and crucify ALL masters/slavers, but some to serve as an example). Or the general commentary that man's whimsy is not a good foundation for setting morality guidelines. Universal for the moment is subjective over time.

As for the episode itself...

- Oh, Cersei, you mad, mad Lioness. You finally became the Queen. Are you happy now? Does it 'feel good'? Or, is it a hollow victory? For what shall it profit a (wo)man, if (s)he shall gain the whole world, and lose his(her) own soul?
And her soul did die, with Tommen's death. I knew as soon as I saw him looking out that gigantic window, which seemed perfect for his size, that he would jump. Was a brilliant scene. No hype. Just...happens. That scene spoke volumes without a single word.
Cersei always plots to take down others, her plotting is outwards, but she is short-sighted in her contingency planning for the potential ripple effect her plots may have on herself/her own. Every time.

- The Tyrells...oh gosh. That was heartbreaking. The family that sticks together, even in death. The final shot of Margery holding Loras. The father who couldn't take the pain inflicted on his son as the mark of the Seven was being carved on his forehead. They truly brought the heart of the family in the show. Margery was smart enough, and familiar enough with Cersei, to know that if Cersei is not there, AND her beloved son is missing....that something is amiss. Too little, too late. Ultimately, the High Sparrow's own naive ego was his/their downfall. Which is ironic as he kept talking about overcoming one's ego, blah blah....but he was too confident in the power of the Seven, to bring justice to all, that it blindsided him. Hubris killed the humble man. Ha!

- Samwell Tarly getting to the city of the Maesters (no idea what that is called/forgot the name)...omg, that is what a sapiophile looks like, about ready to bust! Sam's face of wonder, and awe, at the library of chains (I'm calling it that!!). Didn't fail to notice that he has his special sword with him. Hilarious little interlude of the Maester updating his book (crossing off the list of Maesters from living to dead).

- Jamie made a very astute point to the Freys. What power do the Freys truly have if they require external help (Lannisters) to help them protect their place, every time?

- Ah, Walder Frey, you got your just desserts, and it was some yummy meat pie. Given how much he likes the taste of his 'own' meat (he marries his own daughters)...I was surprised that he was that grossed out at the prospect of eating his own sons. I would have thought it would be right up his own ally. /harsh

- Arya being the assassin/servant girl was no surprise. As soon as Frey noted that he hadn't seen her before/she was not one of his, it was a dead (heh) give-away. Or, the fact that we knew he would die at her hands....or the fact that, of course, she would travel at lightening speed to get to the Frey's manor from Braavos. I assumed her and the Hound would intersect before getting to the Frey party. Given that her and the Hound were together watching the massacre at Red Wedding 1.0. Ah well. I think they just wanted the plot point to wrap up the Frey loose end and move along quickly. And Arya and Hound crossing path, meeting, coming to the same aims, would need to be more flushed out before a plausible duo can be formed to take revenge on the Frey. Too long of an arch, I guess?

- Dany and Tyrion's exchange. Love, love. Tyrion has finally found his purpose and is getting the acknowledgement for it that he has been craving his whole life. She pinned him! Aww....

- Sansa/Creepyfingers/Jon. Am glad that Jon got the title of the leader, i.e., King of the North, so that it saves Sansa (a tiny bit) from responding to the return of favours Littlefinger keeps highlighting for his help in the Battle of the Bastards. He won't be marrying "the Queen", so should probably look elsewhere/leave her alone.

- Jon's parentage. Obvious plot bunny is obvious. In case you missed it, let us superimpose Jon's face as he becomes King of the North with that of the baby. Hammer, meet head. Just realized, we've only confirmed who his mother was. His father is a prevailing theory but yet to be confirmed, I guess. Anyway....

- Bran's storyline. He found out the BEST KEPT secret of GoT (/sarcasm), finally. It was all a bit ridiculous how little purpose Benjen Stark played, to come back, rescue Bran and then leave off into the cold, winter's night, with a promise they will see him again when the time comes to battle for the humans. I believe he was given a total of 3 minutes of screen-time this whole season. How flimsy.

- The holy Ballsy Trinity: Varys, Head Sand and Lady Oleanna......preparing to take down the Lannisters, and for Dany to arrive...Oh yeah! Love how Oleanna took down the Sand Snakes. Shut your mouth, kids, while the adults talk.

- Chillingly perfect scene. Cersei's revenge on the High Sparrow nun who oversaw her imprisonment. She did finally end up confessing, on her own terms. And pointing out a pivotal human drive. We all do things that 'feel good'. Even the nun and the High Sparrow. Shame! Shame....I shudder to think what the Mountain would do to her. Rape is a likely possibility given how creepily Cersei was feeling that woman up when she was tied; among other tortures at the hands of something that is not even human.

- which leads to the second to last closing shot: very appropriate, of the Greyjoy ships sailing the Unsullied, Dany and Co., West to take over Westeros, while the Dragons fly overhead (I can't remember, but I don't recall seeing the Dothraki and their horses on the ship, but it is assumed that they're also coming, right?)

- and, of course, the last chilling closing shot, of Cersei being crowed Queen, and Jamie arriving just in time to see the Sept burning, and Cersei ascending the throne. I'm sure this is his worst nightmare coming true. How strong is his love, in the face of revisiting the very monster he once gave up his good name/reputation for? The Mad Ruler of a Throne. And this time, it's the woman whom he loves in that role. She is no longer the mother of his children. Just Jamie and Cersei. As they began, here they are, alone, just the two of them, having diverged so far off each other's moral path, yet still bound so tightly to one another. The tension of that tether is palpable. Suffocatingly so. Jamie will likely realize it soon, as well, if not already having the first inklings of it settling in. GoT loves for characters to eat their words. And, Jamie's passionate speech to Edmund Tully about Cersei was foreshadowing of the test of his bond, if there ever was one. And who knows how he will express that suffocation, when it comes to Cersei.

 

[Totenkindly]

^ Yeah, it sounds like we are pretty synced up here on this. Although I think Dany has been a little soft on Tyrion; still, I must admit, I teared up and it hit a warmer spot in my heart because I want to see Tyrion have good things after all the abuse he's suffered in his life.

Your comments about Cersei (and even Olenna pointed them out a few episodes back before she left King's Landing) are right on the money. She doesn't have a long game. Sometimes if you are losing badly, you have to play a short-game until you get out of the hole (and leave the long game until later) -- but it bites her in the ass every time because she just stops there, all she has is the short game, and to hell with the ramifications. Still, I respect that as a flaw of the character. It has been VERY consistent.

And yeah, Jaime... I'm thinking that he migh -- yeah.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Ah. Thanks! I forgot about Varys presence! this makes sense.
[MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]

I do love Cersei for her complexity. She's one of few female characters who have ascended through ranks by sheer cunning ruthlessness. (As opposed to Dani, who has mystical power, which makes it so much easier to be morally upright )

Cersei was born into one of the most powerful families in Westeros and married the king. In no way did she come up from nothing by her own skills. She started at near the top.

Now, once in the position, she played her skills fiercely, but her choices have been often poor, demonstrating her limited wisdom and foresight. But she is a survivor and is willing to sacrifice anything to stay in the game.

 

[Qre:us]

Thought! All the full circle symbolism. Whether intentional or not.

Jamie pushed Bran out the window to protect his and Cersei's love.

Tommen jumping out the window began the domino effect of crumbling their love. As one of the great things Jamie loved about Cersei is how fiercely loving she was as a mother to their children. And now all that remains is her ascension to the throne. As the mad, cruel queen. Winning at all cost, even that of her children.

Two boys falling out of high windows began and will likely end their great love story.

 

[ceecee]

Thought! All the full circle symbolism. Whether intentional or not.

Jamie pushed Bran out the window to protect his and Cersei's love.

Tommen jumping out the window began the domino effect of crumbling their love. As one of the great thing Jamie loved about Cersei is how fiercely loving she was as a mother to their children. And now all that remains is her ascension to the throne. As the mad, cruel queen. Winning at all cost, even that of her children.

Two boys falling out of high windows began and will likely end their great love story.

*nods* Plus you can't go all Jihad Jane on a city without consequences. It will be one thing for everyone else to see her as a pariah. But for Jamie to turn on her, especially right after his speech to Edmure Tully, that's gonna leave a mark.

 

[Qre:us]

*nods* Plus you can't go all Jihad Jane on a city without consequences. It will be one thing for everyone else to see her as a pariah. But for Jamie to turn on her, especially right his speech to Edmure Tully, that's gonna leave a mark.

Every couple has their own love song

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Where was the Hound? I thought the actor who played Sandor Clegane was in the cast list for the episode>

 

[Totenkindly]

Well they made this simple, in case anyone was thinking it was going to be trickier to prove who Jon's dad was:

HBO just low key confirmed who Jon Snow’s dad is

...in comes the official HBO blog makinggameofthrones.com with this beautiful, easy(ish) to follow infographic to try and help us follow the hella complicated relationships on Thrones.

Rhaegar is clearly marked as Jon's dad.

 

[Riva]

Cersei was born into one of the most powerful families in Westeros and married the king. In no way did she come up from nothing by her own skills. She started at near the top.

Now, once in the position, she played her skills fiercely, but her choices have been often poor, demonstrating her limited wisdom and foresight. But she is a survivor and is willing to sacrifice anything to stay in the game.

Since i am - as most fans - waiting to see jon, Danny and Tyrion succeed, i don't see that not happening at this moment. However, then there wouldn't be a story. Whitewalkers, cercei and little finger are the only ones that are even slightly capable of stopping those three. So i assume in the next season whitewalkers would attack and cercei would manage to do 'something'. I just dont see the something happening now. Perhaps she would make an alliance with littlefinger.

Omgosh littlefinger + cercei. That will be a lovely couple.

And euron. We would be hard to deal with too.

 

[Haven]

Damn, my second favourite couple from game of thrones is dead now

Is all the love gone from the show yet? How long will Sam and Gilly last???

 

[wolfnara]

Thought! All the full circle symbolism. Whether intentional or not.
Jamie pushed Bran out the window to protect his and Cersei's love.
Tommen jumping out the window began the domino effect of crumbling their love. As one of the great things Jamie loved about Cersei is how fiercely loving she was as a mother to their children. And now all that remains is her ascension to the throne. As the mad, cruel queen. Winning at all cost, even that of her children.
Two boys falling out of high windows began and will likely end their great love story.

Fans have theorized that Cersei will be killed by her brother, according to the witch's prophecy in the books. But Jaime, instead of Tyrion. The Show version of the Prophecy has now been realized, as she declared herself queen of the seven kingdoms but will be surpassed - not by Marjaery, but Daenerys. Love the insight and foreshadowing of GoT.

 

[Forever]

Reading the past responses:

My
Wild
And
Crazy
Predictions

Cersei will be abandoned by Jaime. Mountain will die next season.
Jaime will befriend or may actually fall in love with the oath woman (I forgot her name, the one who swore to protect Sansa and other stark women)

Tyrion may or may not survive next season. I mean when they killed off Margaery I can't tell if our favorite and lovable characters will all stay alive.

I think it's going to be a very black and white outcome for denaerys, she'll either win amazingly or lose terribly.

And the cream of the crop thought: (which at least part of it makes so much sense that it pretty much has to be true in some way or another)

Here's my thought. Denaerys may be interrupted to go help Jon snow to kill the white walkers and they will all forge dragon glass by converting sand by the beach in drone or kings landing.

And of course the dragons, with their own breath will cook all the white walkers but maybe one or all three will die to the white walker King.

 

[Ivy]

So.....

probably a good thing nobody tried to burn Jon's body when he "died," right?