Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

Thought this list had some merit.
Game of Thrones: The 15 Best (and 11 Worst) Book Changes
We've discussed some of these items (both the positive and negative ones) here.

Thank god for Hardhome this season. It might have been the highlight amid some dross (like the pointless Dorne plotline, aside from its last five minutes).

So... Is anyone else is hoping to see Jon snow as a white walker?

Yeah, I think I mentioned that quite a bit ago as one possibility. It would be interesting. I think there's been debate that his eyes turn purple in the last moment of that scene. Fans are sitting there advancing the show frame by frame, i am sure.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Thought this list had some merit.
Game of Thrones: The 15 Best (and 11 Worst) Book Changes
We've discussed some of these items (both the positive and negative ones) here.

Thank god for Hardhome this season. It might have been the highlight amid some dross (like the pointless Dorne plotline, aside from its last five minutes).

See, I liked this season overall. I think it's because I read the books.

Indeed, for the sullied fans of the show who have read the books, season five moved like a freight train with the way it sped through characters’ travels and adventures.

Yeah, I think I mentioned that quite a bit ago as one possibility. It would be interesting. I think there's been debate that his eyes turn purple in the last moment of that scene. Fans are sitting there advancing the show frame by frame, i am sure.

Why would he become a White Walker, at that point in time? There were none around. It might happen in the future, but I don't see how that would work here.

 

[Totenkindly]

See, I liked this season overall. I think it's because I read the books.

Maybe. Going by just the show, it's kind of a forgettable season in terms of high notes until episodes 7-8 and 10. I have trouble remembering much of what happened.

We did get:
- Cersei's walk
- Hardhome up close
- Tyrion meets Daenerys
- Arya gets her first major kill and has way too much fun with it

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Maybe. Going by just the show, it's kind of a forgettable season in terms of high notes until episodes 7-8 and 10. I have trouble remembering much of what happened.

We did get:
- Cersei's walk
- Hardhome up close
- Tyrion meets Daenerys
- Arya gets her first major kill and has way too much fun with it

They just cut out a lot of the fat and pointless crap. For the most part, this was a good decision. I missed some of the political maneuvering of Jon and Danerys's storylines (and I think it would have helped make the climax of those stories have a greater impact), but I understand why they left it out, since most people think that kind of thing is boring. Those storylines dealt with the difficulties of power, even when somebody has good intentions, which is why I loved them. They left enough of it in there for me to enjoy the season overall.

I found this interesting from the article:

“A Song of Ice and Fire” is a stunning work of imagination and intense “big picture” plotting. However, one issue that I think Martin tended to overlook in his early novels is how to predict reader reaction. For instance, he has repeatedly admitted surprise and apprehension to the cult of personality and fandom that has developed around Stannis Baratheon amongst book readers; nor could he guess the level of unforgiving scorn certain fans developed for either Catelyn Stark or her daughter Sansa.

To be sure, there might be something cultural to consider about how readers can forgive a man who murders his brother and has countless more burned at the stake due to the prophecies of a red witch (and that’s not even bringing in what may or may not happen to literary Shireen in the near future), yet simultaneously condemn Catelyn or Sansa as monsters due to their much less deadly and fratricidal foibles.

In Sansa’s case, this vitriol stems from her rather petulant warning to Queen Cersei that Ned Stark plans to leave the Capitol with his family. For a certain stripe of reader, this naïve but believable action by a 14-year-old girl led many to blame her for her father’s maiming later that day at the hands of Jaime Lannister, and most strangely the eventual events that befell him and their whole family. Indeed, there are many fans that say Sansa deserved Joffrey’s beatings, naked humiliations, and worse because of this act.

I totally agree with this, by the way.

 

[Totenkindly]

They just cut out a lot of the fat and pointless crap. For the most part, this was a good decision. I missed some of the political maneuvering of Jon and Danerys's storylines (and I think it would have helped make the climax of those stories have a greater impact), but I understand why they left it out, since most people think that kind of thing is boring. Those storylines dealt with the difficulties of power, even when somebody has good intentions, which is why I loved them. They left enough of it in there for me to enjoy the season overall.

I still don't understand what you are responding to.
I said I found the season boring and without many high notes.

You can talk about the book and what they left out and why you think they should have left it out, but that doesn't really impact what they did in the show since they were changing lots of shit anyway. It doesn't really impact what I said.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I still don't understand what you are responding to.
I said I found the season boring and without many high notes.

You can talk about the book and what they left out and why you think they should have left it out, but that doesn't really impact what they did in the show since they were changing lots of shit anyway. It doesn't really impact what I said.

It doesn't , I just like the season overall. I thought it was stronger than Season 3 despite some lame moments. I like seeing analysis of the consequences of various decisions and we got some of that. I got to see Danerys meet Tyrion, which didn't happen in the book, and it was as awesome as I thought. I think the thing I liked the most is that Tyrion was fun, not mopey.

 

[Totenkindly]

It doesn't , I just like the season overall. I thought it was stronger than Season 3 despite some lame moments.

Season 3? That's a pretty gutsy statement.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Season 3? That's a pretty gutsy statement.

I like seeing analysis of the consequences of various decisions and we got some of that. I got to see Danerys meet Tyrion, which didn't happen in the book, and it was as awesome as I thought. I think the thing I liked the most is that Tyrion was fun, not mopey. Tyrion is my favorite character, and he spent all of Season 3 being mopey. (Season 4 didn't bother me because the stakes were higher). Here he was having adventures again.

 

[Totenkindly]

I definitely could have done with more "Varys + Tyrion Road Trip: The Hangover IV."

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I definitely could have done with more "Varys + Tyrion Road Trip: The Hangover IV."

Yes, I think that's the main thing I liked about this season, and also his interactions with Jorah, scintillating conversationalist.

I think I understand Tyrion pretty well as a character; he's someone that wants to do good, but is never going to be seen as one of the good guys by most people. He's kind of an outcast; not someone who is good at fitting into a crowd.

I also identify with Jon Snow's struggles in later seasons/books. (Not so much earlier on, when he just want to go and fight the wildings.)

Ultimately, I want to be Jon Snow, but I'm really more like Tyrion in terms of personality and attitude to the world.

 

[Qre:us]

Heh, that would be fitting. My only issue with that is that, to me, I'm selfishly more interested in the consequences of For the Watch than I would be by any intrigue in bringing him back. Namely:

Jon is dead. Now his watch has ended... and he would be free of his Night's Watch vows. He's free!

Who knows what superpower might be afforded to Jon if he rises from the dead, in whatever shape or form that he does? Maybe he'd be immune to being killed by the whitewalkers?

I forget where this is from, but there was another saying, "what is dead may never die but rise again stronger, or something...."

Anyway, maybe there's something to that, as it pertains to Jon.

And, I agree, after being betrayed by the Night's Watch, maybe, if and when Jon v 2.0 returns, better, badder, deader, his scope will not be so narrow as to his duty to the Night's Watch, but broaden even further, which will allow him to tackle the Whitewalker problem without the limitations of answering just to the Night's Watch.

I do think Jon was naive in his strategy. Somewhat understandably, he let the over-riding and imminent threat of the Whitewalkers completely drive the solution of bringing the Wildlings into Castle Black, thus, completely ignoring the tenuous yet important factor of having allies from within (his Night's Watch comrades). He completely ignored their perspectives, and consequences of that, even when his squire was giving him hints that, 'hey, you should really factor this angle in, our hatred of the Wildlings....'. Which, was a blind and naive move on his part, which cost him, obviously..........

Or, maybe it's as simple as, 'nearly died, but not quite'.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Who knows what superpower might be afforded to Jon if he rises from the dead, in whatever shape or form that he does? Maybe he'd be immune to being killed by the whitewalkers?

I forget where this is from, but there was another saying, "what is dead may never die but rise again stronger, or something...."

That was from the Greyjoys, who were kind of like the Vikings.

Who knows what superpower might be afforded to Jon if he rises from the dead, in whatever shape or form that he does? Maybe he's immune to being killed by the whitewalkers?

One can hope.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think I understand Tyrion pretty well as a character; he's someone that wants to do good, but is never going to be seen as one of the good guys by most people. He's kind of an outcast; not someone who is good at fitting into a crowd.

"Every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes [and in the eyes of the rest of the world]."

I like watching him in Season 2. We know he is capable of experiencing great empathy (mostly through intuitive means) and intervenes often to protect the abused and ridiculed... but he also doesn't seem to be bothered by playing the game intelligently and processes the crueler folks rationally versus empathetically.

Basically, he's the guy who sees how everything fits together and will end up helping to fix the system... but can never be the face of the system because he doesn't "play well" politically.

I forget where this is from, but there was another saying, "what is dead may never die but rise again stronger, or something...."

it was the title of s2e3. I think it came up when Theon got baptized. It is used in reference to the Drowned God, when an ironman dies, because it's assumed the God has taken him for service and he can serve fitfully without fear of death.

I do think Jon was naive in his strategy. Somewhat understandably, he let the over-riding and imminent threat of the Whitewalkers completely drive the solution of bringing the Wildlings into Castle Black, thus, completely ignoring the tenuous yet important factor of having allies from within (his Night's Watch comrades). He completely ignored their perspectives, and consequences of that, even when his squire was giving him hints that, 'hey, you should really factor this angle in, our hatred of the Wildlings....'. Which, was a blind and naive move on his part, which cost him, obviously..........

Totally. He had some of his dad in him -- a visionary leader who just assumed that if he set an example, his men would follow him and/or at least things would turn out okay and that was all that mattered. He really needed to explain things better and win them over.

From what I understand, the book made Jon look worse as he was going to take men to go save the fake Arya from Ramsay, which was a violation of his vow of non-involvement, and after all the stresses involving the wildings, that was what pushed the men over the edge. IOW, he honestly wasn't as true to the Watch as he should have been and kind of deserved a reprisal.

The show Jon more got presented as someone with the right vision and intentions (more heroic) who unfortunately ignored politics to his own peril and thus was vulnerable.


----

Also, director Nutter on Stannis' "off-camera" demise
'Game Of Thrones' Director Explans Why One Brutal Death Scene Was Not Shown In The Season 5 Finale

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

"Every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes [and in the eyes of the rest of the world]."

I like watching him in Season 2. We know he is capable of experiencing great empathy (mostly through intuitive means) and intervenes often to protect the abused and ridiculed... but he also doesn't seem to be bothered by playing the game intelligently and processes the crueler folks rationally versus empathetically.

Basically, he's the guy who sees how everything fits together and will end up helping to fix the system... but can never be the face of the system because he doesn't "play well" politically.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

Just a hunch but Stanis is probably still alive. Briann needs him to trade for Sansa; remember that Briann knows where the cowardly skank dwells and would prefer to honor her oath to Catlyn than some dweeb who never had a right to the throne in the first place.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Just a hunch but Stanis is probably still alive. Briann needs him to trade for Sansa; remember that Briann knows where the cowardly skank dwells and would prefer to honor her oath to Catlyn than some dweeb who never had a right to the throne in the first place.

Stannis is dead. Brienne failed to protect Sansa. They might meet later, or Sansa and Theon might go off to find Rickon, or possibly the wall.

But Stannis is gone.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

Stannis is dead. Brienne failed to protect Sansa. They might meet later, or Sansa and Theon might go off to find Rickon, or possibly the wall.

But Stannis is gone.

i don't believe you! (covers ears) NA NA NA NA NA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

 

[Totenkindly]

Maybe it's an old Andy Kauffman trick.
...Like, Stannis is just punking everyone.

Now that they think he's dead, he's going to hide out at Nightfort until all the wannabe kings have killed each other.
Then he'll ride in on horseback and proclaim himself King.

It's a plan.

 

[Fuzz]

edit

 

[Udog]

With the season now over, I'd thought I'd answer Jennifer's question from a few weeks ago and post my 5 favorite episodes. I really, really tried to avoid just posting the episodes with the biggest moments, but it turns out that's really hard to do.

5. Season 4, Episode 2: The Lion and the Rose
AKA, the Purple Wedding. George R R Martin's last time writing a Game of Thrones episode, he still writes the characters better than anyone else. The set design for the Royal Wedding was amazing, and they did a brilliant job bringing our hatred for Joffrey to a head before finally killing him off. Bringing an Episode 9 worthy plot-twist to Episode 2 also brought a huge amount of momentum to Season 4.

4. Season 5, Episode 8: Hardhomme
While the 30 minute story of the massacre at Hardhomme was what made this episode a classic, everything else was very solid as well.

3. Season 3, Episode 9: The Rains of Castamere
AKA The Red Wedding. It's basically THE defining moment of the TV show, and I think it's what pushed the show into popular culture. (Youtube reaction videos were hitting late night talk shows, GRRM became more of a celebrity as people wanted to interview him to find out WHY he did what he did, etc.) I have some issues with this episode, but I can't bring myself to ignore it.

2. Season 1, Episode 10: Fire and Blood
I sort of consider Episode 9 and 10 to be in the same bucket, but I have to give the edge to Episode 10. It was the single best season finale of the series to date, largely because of how perfectly it resolved all of the plot threads while still setting up the next season in an exciting way. (Without relying on cheap cliffhangers, too. *coughseason5*) There were just so many memorable moments. Yes, Ned is really dead, and Arya is devastated. Tywin realizes Tyrion is pretty damn smart, and decides to make him Hand of the King. The Lord Commander of the Watch gives an inspirational speech and prepares to march north of the Wall. Oh, and yes, Dany hatches some dragons! And the CGI dragons look great!

Almost as importantly, director Alan Taylor was the first to figure out how to use the limited budget to film the show so it looked like it was happening in another world. For the first time, King's Landing actually looked like it was huge, alive, and something more than just a nice set with pretty costumes. He seems to have basically created the blueprint on how to film the show moving forward. Not surprisingly, after season 2 Alan Taylor would go on to make big fantasy style blockbusters.

In some ways, this should be number one, but there was one episode that did just a bit better...

1. Season 2, Episode 9: Blackwater
Up until this point, the show took inspiration from Rome and would always shy away from battles due to budget issues. This wasn't an option here, though. There were too many characters converging into the same area, and the battle was critical to the plot. In order to film the battle, the show creators begged and pleaded with HBO to get a large budget increase, probably somewhere around the $9 million mark. However, it wasn't just about flexing budgetary and special effects muscles - the action serves to create some of the show's largest character moments. Joffrey is exposed as a coward in spectacular fashion, Tyrion realizes he has a bit of hero in him, the Hound's loyalty to the crown fails in a fire, Cersei's almost poisons her son as she grows desperate, and we see just what wildfire can do. I guess Stannis does some things here as well, but screw him.

All in all, this episode sets the high water mark, and I doubt it'll get surpassed until MAYBE the final season, if we are extremely lucky.

And, I agree, after being betrayed by the Night's Watch, maybe, if and when Jon v 2.0 returns, better, badder, deader, his scope will not be so narrow as to his duty to the Night's Watch, but broaden even further, which will allow him to tackle the Whitewalker problem without the limitations of answering just to the Night's Watch.

I do think Jon was naive in his strategy. Somewhat understandably, he let the over-riding and imminent threat of the Whitewalkers completely drive the solution of bringing the Wildlings into Castle Black, thus, completely ignoring the tenuous yet important factor of having allies from within (his Night's Watch comrades). He completely ignored their perspectives, and consequences of that, even when his squire was giving him hints that, 'hey, you should really factor this angle in, our hatred of the Wildlings....'. Which, was a blind and naive move on his part, which cost him, obviously..........

Agreed. It's very similar to how Ned Stark met his end. He was doing the right thing, but failed to pay attention to how he was alienating everyone around him.

I really have no clue where he'd go next, though. If he does come back, it will probably mean Melisandre is behind him now, which may not be a good thing. He'll also probably have some loyal wildlings (and a giant) that will be willing to go with him... but will he go South for Winterfell, or North in order to learn more about the Walkers?