Game of Thrones!

[Qre:us]

Speaking of the Boltons,

I'm very, very anxious for Sansa, getting messed up in all that. I don't think Baelish will "protect" her like she thinks he might (to a degree, she trusts him, out of all the others around her atm, although she is a bit wary of him, he's the only one she's got on her side, so to speak, after dismissing Brienne). I already get the feeling that Baelish is using Sansa to avenge the slights against him, by Catelyn. Sansa will be paying that price for her mother.

On top of that, agreeing to marry Mr. Psychotic Give-Joffrey-A-Run-For-His-Money Ramsey Bolton cannot end well. It's like jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Joffrey was just as inclined to cruelty and power like Ramsey but he was an idiot. Ramsey has the brains coupled with the inclination. That's a dangerous combo.

Reek/Theon sees Sansa arriving, and his face shows his horror at the realization that his once kind-of-sister is getting mixed up with Ramsey.

I have a very bad feeling about that S/L.

THANK GOODNESS Brienne is trailing them. Always the ray of hope in this dingy cesspool of human depravity.

 

[Riva]

Regarding Arya

I have a feeling the next few episodes of Arya are going to be boring. I can't think of anything that makes that training process exciting. I always felt that training parts of dramas and movies as boring and draggy. But then again I am not a creative writer.

Karate kid and Star Wars did a good job though.

 

[Totenkindly]

Can you please mark which stuff is spoilering stuff from the books that a show watcher wouldn't be current on? The assumption in the thread has been that if you are current with the show, then you can read spoilers, and the book readers haven't been spoiler stuff for the show watchers. (At least not without being explicit that that's what they're doing )

 

[C.J.Woolf]

Regarding Arya

I have a feeling the next few episodes of Arya are going to be boring. I can't think of anything that makes that training process exciting. I always felt that training parts of dramas and movies as boring and draggy. But then again I am not a creative writer.

Karate kid and Star Wars did a good job though.

I love stories of arduous training as a rite of passage. The Paper Chase and An Officer and a Gentleman are two of my favorite films.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

!

I always liked watching training scenes, and I enjoyed the scenes with Arya tonight. What do people make of the House of Black and White? I don't trust them. They said that they looked at death as a gift. I'm not really on board with that. Good for her for hiding Needle, though.

There's also an interesting parallel in my mind with the Sparrow movement. The High Sparrow (played by Jonathon Pryce!) said that people liked listening to them because he told them that "no one is special." Isn't this similar in a way to the insistence of the House of Black and White that Arya become no one?

 

[Qre:us]

And, after this recent episode, Brienne might be meeting Stannis soon, as well. That will be interesting to see, how that plays out. Stannis is coming to overthrown Bolton, which can help Sansa, which is Brienne's quest, but how will she navigate that choice? Stannis who can aid her in her quest to free Sansa from the Boltons versus avenging Renly's death by killing Stannis?

I always liked watching training scenes, and I enjoyed the scenes with Arya tonight. What do people make of the House of Black and White? I don't trust them. They said that they looked at death as a gift. I'm not really on board with that. Good for her for hiding Needle, though.

There's also an interesting parallel in my mind with the Sparrow movement. The High Sparrow (played by Jonathon Pryce!) said that people liked listening to them because he told them that "no one is special." Isn't this similar in a way to the insistence of the House of Black and White that Arya become no one?

I don't trust them either. It's GoT. And they're a mysterious entity. But, I think in terms of the spectrum of good and evil, they might end up being an evil that I'm rooting for, all else considered. Interesting analogy regarding the Sparrows and the Faceless Men.

This recent episode, Arya asked Jaqen, "Why is this called God of Many Faces? I see...[names off the gods there]..." I think there is something to that, to Arya's question left unanswered, and the amount of time (screentime) her and the other girl spent cleaning the body of the dead man, and Arya asking, "What do we do with him after we've cleaned him?" Obviously, the Faceless Men take on many faces, do they take on faces/identity of people who have died?

 

[Totenkindly]

Curse those showrunners... I actually felt sympathy for Cersie last night. Curse you, Benioff and Weiss!
Just leave me my hatred for Ramsey Bolton.
Don't take that away from me.
I need to somebody to love [to hate].

And, oh look, Jorah obsessing over cosplay Khaleesi's, so he ends up indulging in a futile and stupid gesture that was also absolutely unnecessary... If this was an Internet stalking, this is the moment when he stops obsessing over the queen's MySpace account and shows up on her doorstep unshaven, smelling like Listerine, and bearing awkward gifts.

Gosh, I didn't know that Thommen had it in him.

(Or should we say Marjorie? Oh gosh, sorry. Bad pun. But... boy am I glad he seems a lot older than he did last year.)

Best line of the night (rather risque):

doorkeep: it's good luck to pat a dwarf on the head.
Tyrion: It's even better luck to suck a dwarf's cock.

Tyrion is still affected by what happened last season with Shae. That was a nice touch.

I have very much enjoyed the Varys/Tryion road trip: Two of the most articulate, intelligent, and whimsical characters on the show, forced into a cramped little room with wheels, with nothing better to do but drink and banter.

Damn those "Lord of Lights" cultists. They're like termites; they get into everything and eat it away from the inside.

Hooray for Brienne -- great backstory, and she eased up on Podrick and actually is taking responsibility for his growth. But finally we also got a clear sense of her "new direction." This ought to be good... unless you're GRRM, so she'll probably get tetanus from a rusty nail and die out in the woods somewhere before even coming close to succeeding.

Did I see the Mountain shake?

Poor Sansa. Damn Littlefinger.
I got a little choked up, though, when she was brought to her room. Nice.

Jon Snow finds himself in a predicament like Daenerys and Robb before him. Does it turn out the same? I had no idea what he would do, honestly. Or even what he should do.

It also looks like Arya still has some depth. What a terrible choice to have to make, and I understand why she settled on what she did. But either you're somebody or you're nobody, and you either cleanse yourself to become the blank slate or you remain yourself. I wonder if that will come back to haunt her, or whether it's allowable.

 

[Udog]

I hadn't picked up on this before, but it's actually pretty neat to introduce the House of Black and White right after Arya refused to kill a suffering and dying Hound. Arya probably doesn't buy into the whole "death is a gift" idea, either.

 

[Qlip]

I hadn't picked up on this before, but it's actually pretty neat to introduce the House of Black and White right after Arya refused to kill a suffering and dying Hound. Arya probably doesn't buy into the whole "death is a gift" idea, either.

Or.. Arya was withholding the gift of death, because he was on her shit list.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Curse those showrunners... I actually felt sympathy for Cersie last night. Curse you, Benioff and Weiss!
Just leave me my hatred for Ramsey Bolton.
Don't take that away from me.

He's the most loathsome person in the whole series, and he's more loathsome in the books.

And, oh look, Jorah obsessing over cosplay Khaleesi's, so he ends up indulging in a futile and stupid gesture that was also absolutely unnecessary... If this was an Internet stalking, this is the moment when he stops obsessing over the queen's MySpace account and shows up on her doorstep unshaven, smelling like Listerine, and bearing awkward gifts.

Yes... in the books there's a lot of lecturing about what he did to his dad, because he feels guilty about what happened with his dad (the old Lord Commander of the Night's Watch).

Along similar lines, I love the scene when the High Septon comes before the Small Council and all the bleating of the folks there. Grand Maester Pycelle's response is classic. Buffoons and hypocrites, all of them, except for Qyburn.

I have very much enjoyed the Varys/Tryion road trip: Two of the most articulate, intelligent, and whimsical characters on the show, forced into a cramped little room with wheels, with nothing better to do but drink and banter.

I know... it's a nice addition. This wasn't in the books, and I honestly like this better. I'm not sure where the other subplot in the books is going, but I worry it might have put too many balls in the air. I doubt we'll ever see it on the show.

Damn those "Lord of Lights" cultists. They're like termites; they get into everything and eat it away from the inside.

Tell me about it. Here's a quote of Tyrion's inner monologue during this scene from the book:

Light our fire and protect us from the dark, blah, blah, light our way and keep us toasty warm, the night is full of terrors, save us from the scary thing, and blah blah blah some more.

I love it.

Hooray for Brienne -- great backstory, and she eased up on Podrick and actually is taking responsibility for his growth. But finally we also got a clear sense of her "new direction." This ought to be good... unless you're GRRM, so she'll probably get tetanus from a rusty nail and die out in the woods somewhere before even coming close to succeeding.

Yes, it was an interesting bit of insight into that situation.

Did I see the Mountain shake?

I'll admit, that startled me. It looks like he's creating some kind of Frankenstein's monster thing.

Poor Sansa. Damn Littlefinger.
I got a little choked up, though, when she was brought to her room. Nice.

It was very strange to see Winterfell again. It brought me back to the first season. It was reassuring, in a way, but I didn't like the flayed men. It looked better without it.

Jon Snow finds himself in a predicament like Daenerys and Robb before him. Does it turn out the same? I had no idea what he would do, honestly. Or even what he should do.

I'm not sure, but it was an excellent scene. I liked it in the books, too. Janos Slynt was loathsome; he talked a big game, but was merely a coward and a backstabber. When the chips were down, and things were at the darkest, he's the kind of person that would do nothing except run and hide. I don't find that to be loathsome in and of itself (it's understandable), but what I dislike it is that he puffs himself and paints himself as some kind of strong warrior for the Night's Watch. He's dishonest and utterly full of shit about everything.

If it were me, I don't know if I would have given him mercy or not, but I don't miss the character.

It also looks like Arya still has some depth. What a terrible choice to have to make, and I understand why she settled on what she did. But either you're somebody or you're nobody, and you either cleanse yourself to become the blank slate or you remain yourself. I wonder if that will come back to haunt her, or whether it's allowable.

I'm curious as well....the books give no information on this, unfortunately.

Or.. Arya was withholding the gift of death, because he was on her shit list.

I think I'm inclined to think that this isn't what happened. I think she took him off her list. There was that scene when he offered to take care of his wounds. She could have helped Brienne kill the hound, too, if that was what she wanted.

 

[Udog]

Or.. Arya was withholding the gift of death, because he was on her shit list.

Yes, but denying the gift so she could better extract vengeance would surely be against a Faceless Assassin's code, wouldn't it?

...Maybe not, I'm not entirely clear what is and isn't acceptable reasons for the Faceless to kill.

 

[Totenkindly]

Along similar lines, I love the scene when the High Septon comes before the Small Council and all the bleating of the folks there. Grand Maester Pycelle's response is classic. Buffoons and hypocrites, all of them, except for Qyburn.

I've always hated Pycelle, just not quite as much as I hate Cersie.

I realized recently that Varys gave good advice to the mad king about not trusting the Lannisters, but it was Pycelle who said to let them in... and then they took the city. [Did I pick that up correctly?] Pycelle is just full of himself and a doddering old man, his advice almost always ends up being lousy.

I'm not sure, but it was an excellent scene. I liked it in the books, too. Janos Slynt was loathsome; he talked a big game, but was merely a coward and a backstabber. When the chips were down, and things were at the darkest, he's the kind of person that would do nothing except run and hide. I don't find that to be loathsome in and of itself (it's understandable), but what I dislike it is that he puffs himself and paints himself as some kind of strong warrior for the Night's Watch. He's dishonest and utterly full of shit about everything.

If it were me, I don't know if I would have given him mercy or not, but I don't miss the character.

I don't either. The only thing that gave me doubt in the TV version is that the very last admission by his character -- that he was scared and had always been a coward -- was a huge revelation, either in that he had just figured it out or was finally letting everyone else know and being honest. Not that it excuses his prior actions, but it's one of the catalyst moments in a person life... so Jon could decide whether to give him a shot to rise from the ashes or just end it regardless, and made his decision. Without that moment, I wouldn't have had any doubt about what he deserved.

I think I'm inclined to think that this isn't what happened. I think she took him off her list. There was that scene when he offered to take care of his wounds. She could have helped Brienne kill the hound, too, if that was what she wanted.

I have no idea which it was -- either he was now off her list, or she was punishing him worse.
But I think that ambiguity is why the scene was so beautiful. We just don't know. Maybe she doesn't either.

 

[Totenkindly]

SOme guy's opinion:
It's Becoming Clear 'Game of Thrones' Will End At Season Seven - Forbes

I guess book readers might know better than show-only watchers would.

 

[Totenkindly]

Lots of comments about Rhaegar in tonight's episode.

Kind of telling with Littlefinger and Sansa. Littlefinger describes the tournament where Rhaegar dissed his own wife Elia Tyrell (who we all know as Oberyn's mantra, as she and her children were eventually slain by Gregor and another of the Kingsguard). Sansa: "... and then Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her." Littlefinger thinks for awhile, then just goes with that; but it's clear he knows more about it. [It reminds me very much of the scene in Watchmen where Laurie throws a drink in the Comedian's face after accusing him of raping her mother... and he looks down at her and says, "Only once." It takes her years to unpack that one small statement and have it spin her world around.] Even Stannis makes some comment about how it wasn't Ned's way to sleep with a whore. I am more and more sure that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, at this point.

I must say, I think Littlefinger does strategically understand the situation in Winterfell. Yes, he's slimy; but he's quite good at what he does.

I feel bad for Tommen. He's too young and inexperienced to play the Game well at this point. He also has a soul, but it might get him killed; I'm sure Joffrey would have had his guards cut down all the priests and taken the high Sparrow back for torture, for refusing the king.

I'm hoping we see Olenna again. BUt I'm hoping Mace never comes back.

Great scene between Jon and Melisandre. I think she had planned to create another shadow-demon baby in Jon's image, but he rebuffs her. But her parting words dropped my jaw.

I had a feeling Jaime's hand would be useful to him. And with the Sandsnakes and mom in motions, it looks like it's a race for Myrcella.

Jorah's such a weenie, did he really bitch-slap a dwarf? A dwarf in handcuffs? Still, at least Tyrion legitimately would have been capable of piecing all that together; anyone else, it would have been the writers cheating.

Dammit, Stannis: I actually cried after that speech. Note how he still is cold and has trouble hugging her at the end (although eventually he does). Here I just really wanted to keep hating on him, and now I can't. But does this mean something bad is about to happen?

Barrister, damn, old man. You rock. I didn't see a kill shot on him or Grey Worm, so there's a chance they'll both live. I'm thinking, though, with Barrister out of the way, Jorah has an avenue open to approach the Khaleesi.

And thus ends Episode 4.

 

[Qre:us]

^ did you catch a glimpse of the preview for the next episode? It seems very revealing about the fate of Barrister Selmy.

The Sand Snakes seem kind of gimmicky and trying to be badass. I don't know if I'll enjoy that story arc. Only redeeming thing will be the Jaime & Bronn interaction.

Finally, we see some humanity in Stannis. He reminded me of an armadillo, but it was good to see under the armour, that he cares for something/someone beyond "rightfully securing his place on the throne".

Will be interesting to see what Littlefinger will get up to, once he returns to King's Landing/responds to Cersei.

 

[Totenkindly]

^ did you catch a glimpse of the preview for the next episode? It seems very revealing about the fate of Barrister Selmy.

I heard about it from someone else who saw the preview.

It's not really a wise use of character; but as I noted, I think it was more about opening a spot for Jorah to slough his way back into the Khalessi's good graces. She's desperate; she needs help; Jorah comes bearing gifts. Barrister wouldn't have let that happen.

Sad. I liked that old man. At least he died fighting; he was pretty bad-ass.

The Sand Snakes seem kind of gimmicky and trying to be badass. I don't know if I'll enjoy that story arc. Only redeeming thing will be the Jaime & Bronn interaction.

I'm hoping Jaime accepts he can never be the Jaime he was -- he'll never be the "best swordsman in the land" again -- yet after his minor victory here realizes that he might be able to take advantage of something he has long thought was a hindrance. Talk about Gadget Grip. What else could he do with that thing, if he just went with it?

Oh, the one thing I forgot to mention: Jaime's comments about Tyrion. Yeah, apparently the end of Season 4 might have caused some damage, but from Jaime's end instead of Tyrion's (as I think in the book it was Tyrion who was pissed off at Jaime due to the revelations about the first woman he was with?)


EDIT:

Interview with Carice Van Houten (Melisandre)
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/05/melisandre-game-of-thrones

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Will be interesting to see what Littlefinger will get up to, once he returns to King's Landing/responds to Cersei.

What I hope happens is that Sansa turns the tables on Littlefinger at one point. She seems to be a weakness of his. He's telling her all her secrets, and it doesn't seem to occur to him that one day, he might turn on her.

Barristan's death was also a shock, and upset me somewhat. He's not dead in the books. Now Danerys is growing increasingly isolated... she's losing trustworthy advisers and mentor figures right and left.

 

[Qre:us]

Beware! Complete fangirling about Jaime/Brienne ahead!!

Speculation #39830483030843

In this last episode, Bronn and Jaime had an interesting conversation, about the "best way to die", which mirrors an earlier conversation Tyrion had with ..... (I forget who). Anyway, Jaime's reply is, "In the arms of the woman I love." To which Bronn questions, "Does she feel the same?" (or something to that effect/same sentiment).

The line definitely is an attempt to question Cersei's love for Jaime (not just for Jaime to self-reflect on that, but the audience).

In such a tightly packed show, with 10 episodes each season to achieve a hell of a lot, I an reluctant to assume that anything is a space-filler/throw-away. My default is to assume that anything mentioned has a purpose to drive the story forward/a foreshadowing.

I think Jaime's "wish" will come true, but probably not in the way he or the audience anticipates. I think he might kill Cersei, in a double murder-suicide scenario (don't know what will drive him to that, but seems fitting for the end of those twins). But, it will be at a time when his affections would have shifted to someone else (for him to be able to do that act). That someone else, I think, will be Brienne. Who will come in time, but just too late, to watch him die after he kills his sister. So he will die in the arms of the woman he loves, but I don't think it's the one he has in mind, currently.

/fanning ova

What I hope happens is that Sansa turns the tables on Littlefinger at one point. She seems to be a weakness of his. He's telling her all her secrets, and it doesn't seem to occur to him that one day, he might turn on her.

Do you mean, when she turns on him, one day? Yeah, I can see that playing out. Betrayed again by another Tully/Stark woman. First Catelyn, then the daughter who is most like her.

Do you think Littlefinger had a role in orchestrating the Red Wedding? Or, peripherally nudging the pieces/pawns on the board towards that direction? After being shunned by Catelyn in Renly's camp (I think?)?

Barrister Selmy:

Barristan's death was also a shock, and upset me somewhat. He's not dead in the books. Now Danerys is growing increasingly isolated... she's losing trustworthy advisers and mentor figures right and left.

I will miss him, dearly. He was one of the few good ones. Truly good, through and through. Like Brienne. Honour and all. *moment of silence*

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Speculation #39830483030843

In this last episode, Bronn and Jaime had an interesting conversation, about the "best way to die", which mirrors an earlier conversation Tyrion had with ..... (I forget who). Anyway, Jaime's reply is, "In the arms of the woman I love." To which Bronn questions, "Does she feel the same?" (or something to that effect/same sentiment).

The line definitely is an attempt to question Cersei's love for Jaime (not just for Jaime to self-reflect on that, but the audience).

In such a tightly packed show, with 10 episodes each season to achieve a hell of a lot, I an reluctant to assume that anything is a space-filler/throw-away. My default is to assume that anything mentioned has a purpose to drive the story forward/a foreshadowing.

I think Jaime's "wish" will come true, but probably not in the way he or the audience anticipates. I think he might kill Cersei, in a double murder-suicide scenario (don't know what will drive him to that, but seems fitting for the end of those twins). But, it will be at a time when his affections would have shifted to someone else (for him to be able to do that act). That someone else, I think, will be Brienne. Who will come in time, but just too late, to watch him die after he kills his sister. So he will die in the arms of the woman he loves, but I don't think it's the one he has in mind, currently.

/fanning ova

These aren't spoilers, because the book hasn't reached that point yet, but I think Jaime will be responsible in some way for Cersei's death. The Lannisters will ultimately have proven to be their own worst enemies due to Tywin's shitty parenting, which would be deliciously ironic. Out of all of them, Tyrion has the best the shot at making it to the endgame.

Regarding Cersei's devotion to Jaime, remember her fling with Lancel in Season 2?

 

[Qre:us]

These aren't spoilers, because the book hasn't reached that point yet, but I think Jaime will be responsible in some way for Cersei's death. The Lannisters will ultimately have proven to be their own worst enemies due to Tywin's shitty parenting, which would be deliciously ironic. Out of all of them, Tyrion has the best the shot at making it to the endgame.

I don't read the books but in the books, do Jaime and Brienne fall in love? Or move towards that direction?

I think I asked this a long time ago, and [MENTION=4722]Udog[/MENTION] helpfully gave some answers, but apparently Brienne betrays Jaime to save Pod but, it doesn't matter as the show has completely taken out that story. I don't remember what he might have said about their growing affection (if any) that might have occured in the books!

I don't much care for what happens in the books, as I know I will never get around to reading it, and I quite enjoy the unspoiled perspective being a show-watcher only affords me, rather than trying to see what stayed the same/went different in the show vs the book. Comparing. Etc.

So, I am very hesitant to ask for spoilers from the book, but for Jaime/Brienne, I'll break that rule.

Regarding Cersei's devotion to Jaime, remember her fling with Lancel in Season 2?

LOL, is Lancel the cousin Lannister that she was screwing, who Tyrion manipulated and kicked out of the carriage once? The newly turned member of the Sparrow Society? I think he's going to fuck with Cersei (and not in the way he had previously), in the coming episodes. The Manson carving on the forehead was the first sign....

I can't wait!!! He finally got some chutzpah, even if it is the fanatical, brainwashed variety.