Game of Thrones!

[johnnyyukon]

I don't understand how everyone can so quickly forget what a monster Jaime was. No one remembers that he had a huge hand in

I didn't forget, do you not read all my posts? What's wrong with you? :

It's like to me, that scene, was more Cersei's protesting cuz dead-Joffrey was right there. Not that that's an excuse, but "rape" in those times was as common as murdering a Stark. My bigger point is that it doesn't make Jaimie a monster. Well shit, he kind of already is; he does like to defenestrate children. Keep that in mind. It's all relative. These are murdering, manipulative, lying, amoral characters here. This show does a fantastic job of making evil characters likeable. What's one half-rape added to the mix?

 

[kyuuei]

I agree that Jaime was always an amoral character, but I think the issue with that scene is the fact that so many do see it as ambiguous in the first place, which suggests something about the perception of those people or perhaps how that scene was portrayed.

But a lot of people like their characters to be clearly outlined in their moral codes. Jamie isn't, but it is jarring how contrasted and heavy handed those scenes make him appear.

Oh I see what you did there...

(but srsly, I like that he's not so black and white anymore. You can't predict him right now, and it's awesome.)

I didn't forget, do you not read all my posts? What's wrong with you? :

I'm with you on all accounts.

 

[Randomnity]

But a lot of people like their characters to be clearly outlined in their moral codes. Jamie isn't, but it is jarring how contrasted and heavy handed those scenes make him appear.

I actually have exactly the opposite complaint. Before, he was nuanced. I love grey characters and he's one of my favourite characters, possibly the top one, for that reason. Adding in that scene makes him cross out of grey and into irredeemable territory, and thus he becomes boring again. Not quite a Joffrey, but bad enough.

 

[Cellmold]

I actually have exactly the opposite complaint. Before, he was nuanced. I love grey characters and he's one of my favourite characters, possibly the top one, for that reason. Adding in that scene makes him cross out of grey and into irredeemable territory, and thus he becomes boring again. Not quite a Joffrey, but bad enough.

That's what I meant by heavy handed. Like you said it just draws a line.... Then rubs it out and draws a circle round him instead that he can't step away from.

Mind you there is the child pushing as well. Hmmm maybe my language structure wasn't very good there.... Damn and it was my only good subject.

 

[Dr Mobius]

More about Jack Gleeson AKA Joffrey.

Ah I wondered whether this would happen. I kept thinking to myself this poor guy is going to be typecast as douchey rich white guy number one, and that he would have to spend the next few years playing outlier indie roles to break it. Good move on his part.

 

[Ivy]

I actually have exactly the opposite complaint. Before, he was nuanced. I love grey characters and he's one of my favourite characters, possibly the top one, for that reason. Adding in that scene makes him cross out of grey and into irredeemable territory, and thus he becomes boring again. Not quite a Joffrey, but bad enough.

yeah, exactly. I appreciated the nuance of his character being in a grey area morally before this happened, but this was a truly ham-fisted way of creating more nuance, if that's what they were going for.

 

[Totenkindly]

Been thinking more about it... Maybe it was already mentioned above (I don't feel like rereading the entire thread to check), but maybe if we set aside good/bad for the moment and considered Jaime's actions in light of family/not-family:

The pattern actually in Jaime's past is family/not family, versus good/bad.

The most important thing to the Lannisters is family (and paying their debts). This is why Tyrion was not drowned as a baby. It explains much of their current success; they present a unified front and don't turn on each other.

If you are not a Lannister, then you're part of the "game" and fair game for Jaime to treat you however he wants, based on the needs of the moment. He doesn't particularly go out of his way to CAUSE suffering; and he does have his own particular sense of honor (such as picking a fight with Eddard so he'd have an excuse to kill him, yet quitting the fight because someone else wounded Eddard and it's no longer "fair"); and we even know now that he bears the shameful title of Kingslayer because he broke his trust in the Guard in order to save not just his family but all of King's Landing....

.... but at the same time, he has no compunctions about hurting others in the moment, if it makes sense. Cersie asked him to kill Bran for discovering their incest; he doesn't kill him directly but does pitch him out the window. He strangles one of his cousins/distant relatives to escape Robb. etc.

The distinct for him has always been family, and typically the pain he causes outside his family is impersonal, NOT personal.

I think people are jarred in that his offense against Cersie is very personal. He didn't really care about Bran either way, it was just "business," but his actions after Joffrey's death are a very personal violation, and he is also violating his own commitment to family. He has finally done something "bad" on a very very personal level, violating his own established behavior.

But, taking this another step... Jaime's commitment to family has actually been violated a lot in the last few episodes... and it starts right before he loses his hand, when he intervenes to save Brienne. What he did to Cersie was horrendous, but it's also a sign that his blind commitment to family is slipping . He also then refuses to murder Tyrion at Cersie's behest, in part because he's his brother but also because he thinks/knows he's innocent. And then he turns around and, instead of murdering Sansa (as Cersie demands), he sents Brienne off to find and protect the girl... and to help her, he gives her the Valerian steel sword his father gave HIM as a Lannister heirloom. Can you imagine? Tywin melts Stark's sword down as booty for the Lannister's, and his oldest son gives the weapon back to the Stark house, essentially, in defiance of his father.

Yes, I think that what Jaime did to Cersie was horrid; but it seems to be part of an exemplified decline in his blind loyalty to the Lannister family that has been dictating his actions for him throughout the narrative. His behavior is no longer being defined by the needs of the Lannister family. I'm not sure where it's all going, but that perspective seems to find better coherence between his actions.

 

[Totenkindly]

If Disney did GoT...

https://tv.yahoo.com/news/game-thrones-look-disney-adapted-210900601.html

 

[kyuuei]

Been thinking more about it... Maybe it was already mentioned above (I don't feel like rereading the entire thread to check), but maybe if we set aside good/bad for the moment and considered Jaime's actions in light of family/not-family:

The pattern actually in Jaime's past is family/not family, versus good/bad.

The most important thing to the Lannisters is family (and paying their debts). This is why Tyrion was not drowned as a baby. It explains much of their current success; they present a unified front and don't turn on each other.

If you are not a Lannister, then you're part of the "game" and fair game for Jaime to treat you however he wants, based on the needs of the moment. He doesn't particularly go out of his way to CAUSE suffering; and he does have his own particular sense of honor (such as picking a fight with Eddard so he'd have an excuse to kill him, yet quitting the fight because someone else wounded Eddard and it's no longer "fair"); and we even know now that he bears the shameful title of Kingslayer because he broke his trust in the Guard in order to save not just his family but all of King's Landing....

.... but at the same time, he has no compunctions about hurting others in the moment, if it makes sense. Cersie asked him to kill Bran for discovering their incest; he doesn't kill him directly but does pitch him out the window. He strangles one of his cousins/distant relatives to escape Robb. etc.

The distinct for him has always been family, and typically the pain he causes outside his family is impersonal, NOT personal.

I think people are jarred in that his offense against Cersie is very personal. He didn't really care about Bran either way, it was just "business," but his actions after Joffrey's death are a very personal violation, and he is also violating his own commitment to family. He has finally done something "bad" on a very very personal level, violating his own established behavior.

But, taking this another step... Jaime's commitment to family has actually been violated a lot in the last few episodes... and it starts right before he loses his hand, when he intervenes to save Brienne. What he did to Cersie was horrendous, but it's also a sign that his blind commitment to family is slipping . He also then refuses to murder Tyrion at Cersie's behest, in part because he's his brother but also because he thinks/knows he's innocent. And then he turns around and, instead of murdering Sansa (as Cersie demands), he sents Brienne off to find and protect the girl... and to help her, he gives her the Valerian steel sword his father gave HIM as a Lannister heirloom. Can you imagine? Tywin melts Stark's sword down as booty for the Lannister's, and his oldest son gives the weapon back to the Stark house, essentially, in defiance of his father.

Yes, I think that what Jaime did to Cersie was horrid; but it seems to be part of an exemplified decline in his blind loyalty to the Lannister family that has been dictating his actions for him throughout the narrative. His behavior is no longer being defined by the needs of the Lannister family. I'm not sure where it's all going, but that perspective seems to find better coherence between his actions.

This was driving me BANANAS so I had to find the quotes from the book.

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons…”
“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

Really, they did turn the scene into a rape. I remembered the part of her resisting him and saying no, but wanting him anyways. In the end she didn't fight hard at all to get away from him--she did want it from the start. So, yeah, they pretty much took vast liberties there to cut their ties in a far more drastic and sudden fashion than the slow detangling on their relationship in the book. But literally I felt like I was the only one complaining about Dany falling for Drogo, and I find Jaime's first act against Bran far more despicable than him raping Cersei, and I find it all kinds of fucked up that in the book Cersei wanted to have sex with her brother with her dead son right there. In the end, she sends him letters to help her, and he rejects her.. but the show is time lapsing everything and condensing it. There are other ways they could have done it--like him and her arguing over Tyrion's proposed murder for example. But they didn't. And they show rape in that show like Spartacus shows penis, so it still doesn't make totally frowny-faced that a dude in a fucked up relationship did a fucked up thing.

So, this leads me to believe that they're combining animosity that he gets from her later on in the book that is impossible to build up over time--when he finds out that she's been cheating on him all along for her personal gains--not because she has to to be queen and hide their love like with Robert Baratheon. Yeah, they could have gone about it other ways, but they didn't, and it's not like I'm going to stop watching the show now just because of it.

 

[Totenkindly]

This was driving me BANANAS so I had to find the quotes from the book.

God. I don't know whether that's good writing or bad. It's a little over the top, lol, with a dallop of fan fic style drama.

...Then again, apparently people buy it.

Anyway, so what you're saying is maybe they instigated the rape scene to condense/hasten the eventual animosity they end up feeling toward each other? That's possible. It's hard to comment until we see where they are going with it... but yes, that would be one way to resolve an adaptation problem. Maybe that's all this was.

 

[kyuuei]

God. I don't know whether that's good writing or bad. It's a little over the top, lol, with a dallop of fan fic style drama.

...Then again, apparently people buy it.

Anyway, so what you're saying is maybe they instigated the rape scene to condense/hasten the eventual animosity they end up feeling toward each other? That's possible. It's hard to comment until we see where they are going with it... but yes, that would be one way to resolve an adaptation problem. Maybe that's all this was.

Yeah I don't remember it being so... cheesy when I was reading it, considering the darkness of the book usually. I think when you're reading through so many heavy chapters though, that doesn't sound so bad and it gives you a little breath of air. Out of the context, yeah.. it looks a little Twilight.

It's going to be interesting to see how they interpret the Queens' arrests by the Sparrows.. they haven't even mentioned them yet, but I think they Sparrows have already been mentioned several times in the books by now, slowly building up the name for their eventual uprising. Things really start to fall apart when Tyrion escapes if I remember correctly.. and she really just goes bananas and starts hating everything and everyone. Her drinking binges play a bit more role of influence in the book than they seem to in the show--they've only passively mentioned her alcoholism once or twice in the show.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah I don't remember it being so... cheesy when I was reading it, considering the darkness of the book usually. I think when you're reading through so many heavy chapters though, that doesn't sound so bad and it gives you a little breath of air. Out of the context, yeah.. it looks a little Twilight.

It's going to be interesting to see how they interpret the Queens' arrests by the Sparrows.. they haven't even mentioned them yet, but I think they Sparrows have already been mentioned several times in the books by now, slowly building up the name for their eventual uprising. Things really start to fall apart when Tyrion escapes if I remember correctly.. and she really just goes bananas and starts hating everything and everyone. Her drinking binges play a bit more role of influence in the book than they seem to in the show--they've only passively mentioned her alcoholism once or twice in the show.

...I kind of skimmed over much of your spoiler because as I started to read it looks like something further in the story I don't want to know about until it happens.

 

[kyuuei]

...I kind of skimmed over much of your spoiler because as I started to read it looks like something further in the story I don't want to know about until it happens.

Ah!! I forgot you haven't read them! @_@~! so sorry, nooo don't look then!

 

[Totenkindly]

[MENTION=5510]simulatedworld[/MENTION]: This is the book/show discussion thread, in Arts & Entertainment. We're discussing narrative content, theme, etc. here.

Can you move that post over to the actual type discussion thread in Pop Culture & Type at:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5839

Thanks.

 

[Vasilisa]

[MENTION=5510]simulatedworld[/MENTION]: This is the book/show discussion thread, in Arts & Entertainment. We're discussing narrative content, theme, etc. here.

Can you move that post over to the actual type discussion thread in Pop Culture & Type at:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5839

Thanks.

Posts moved to http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5839

 

[1487610420]

...I kind of skimmed over much of your spoiler because as I started to read it looks like something further in the story I don't want to know about until it happens.

Oh you mean that part when *censored* goes to *censored* and then meets up with *censored* and they *censored* and *censored* and then the *censored* takes place?

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION]
(I don't think I'm spoiling much at this point, but) I never really say Jaime as a monster. He's a bit of a dick, and he's willing to do what he has to do to protect his family, but he's a lot less unnecessarily cruel than most of the other characters, one of the only people who is nice to Jaime and, in a roundabout way, does have some vestiges of an honor code
PS: season 4 ep 3 spoiler

Cersei deserved to get raped. I laughed my ass off

 

[johnnyyukon]

[MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION]
(I don't think I'm spoiling much at this point, but) I never really say Jaime as a monster. He's a bit of a dick, and he's willing to do what he has to do to protect his family, but he's a lot less unnecessarily cruel than most of the other characters, one of the only people who is nice to Jaime and, in a roundabout way, does have some vestiges of an honor code
PS: season 4 ep 3 spoiler

Cersei deserved to get raped. I laughed my ass off

Rape is never funny, mister!!

But god how I hate Cersei. What a c***

 

[Elfboy]

Rape is never funny, mister!!
But god how I hate Cersei. What a c***

if we're talking about someone as fucked up as Cersei, then you bet your ass it's funny (though, I would have preferred it if it were Joffrey. he deserves to get raped even more)

 

[johnnyyukon]

if we're talking about someone as fucked up as Cersei, then you bet your ass it's funny (though, I would have preferred it if it were Joffrey. he deserves to get raped even more)

Yeah, I'm kidding. Every topic can be funny. Tosh proved this.