Game of Thrones!

[011235813]

I know I'm in minority among fans of the book, but I like the changes they've made to Robb's wife. Do people really think she was better developed in the book? Of course, the show also brought Robb to the forefront more, while the book had Catelyn front and center, so I wouldn't really say it's a flaw of the book.

I'm actually with you on this one. She was like, some small lordling's girl in the book and he just kind of showed up with her.. It really didn't give ANY reason as to why he fell for her, the relationship seemed so loosely tied that I thought for sure he was planning something a bit dark to help him with the war somehow with it. The show definitely has an emphasis on relationships vs world building, as it should unless you want a few episodes to sound like history lessons, and I think they had to make a girl people would actually like. A real and really good reason for a Stark to go back on his oath.

I think it had something to do with him not wanting to father a bastard because of his guilt about how his half-brother was treated. Even so, she wasn't really a character.

I would have enjoyed the changes and a more thoroughly fleshed out Mrs. Robb if it had actually been convincingly done. As it is, the mysterious healer from a foreign land with a heart of gold? Really? It just seems so Mary Sue-ish and hokey.

Whereas, the basic premise in the books, i.e. Robb was horny, Jeyne was there and willing, and he felt bad about it the next day, is much more believable, IMO, even though it's not that interesting. Meh. What I really enjoyed was watching the layers of treachery unfold, with the Westerlings knowing about what was to come and making damn well sure that Jeyne didn't get pregnant and stayed away from the Twins, because they were Lannister bannermen at the end of the day and trying to back the right winner.

As it stands, I suppose they'll have to settle for killing Talisa and her unborn child at the Red Wedding in order to drum up more emotional shock for the viewers.

CAN'T WAIT FOR RED WEDDING THOUGH. AWW, YEAH. I love the little bits of foreshadowing they threw in last episode, like Jaime Lannister telling Roose Bolton to say he sent his regards.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I would have enjoyed the changes and a more thoroughly fleshed out Mrs. Robb if it had actually been convincingly done. As it is, the mysterious healer from a foreign land with a heart of gold? Really? It just seems so Mary Sue-ish and hokey.

Whereas, the basic premise in the books, i.e. Robb was horny, Jeyne was there and willing, and he felt bad about it the next day, is much more believable, IMO, even though it's not that interesting. Meh. What I really enjoyed was watching the layers of treachery unfold, with the Westerlings knowing about what was to come and making damn well sure that Jeyne didn't get pregnant and stayed away from the Twins, because they were Lannister bannermen at the end of the day and trying to back the right winner.

As it stands, I suppose they'll have to settle for killing Talisa and her unborn child at the Red Wedding in order to drum up more emotional shock for the viewers.

CAN'T WAIT FOR RED WEDDING THOUGH. AWW, YEAH. I love the little bits of foreshadowing they threw in last episode, like Jaime Lannister telling Roose Bolton to say he sent his regards.

Well, folks on the asoiaf reddit seem to think that she might actually be a spy. I don't really like that very much. They point to the letter writing, but the scene last night suggested the opposite, that she was actually writing to her mother. It just didn't really play as if she was being a spy. I think it was a red herring.

I'm a little irked that we didn't get Sam the Slayer last night. I thought for sure it would be this episode, because they showed the obsidian last time. Probably either next episode, or the last episode. It seems too much of a triumphant note for "The Rains of Castamere." I'm also curious how much of that episode is going to be devoted to the Red Wedding. Will it be closer to the Season 1 climax, or the Season 2 climax? I suspect it will be somewhere in between, but in what direction? I can't wait for Ramsay Snow to be revealed, too. A lot of people who haven't read the books haven't figured out who he is, as obvious as it may seem.

 

[Nicodemus]

I would have enjoyed the changes and a more thoroughly fleshed out Mrs. Robb if it had actually been convincingly done. As it is, the mysterious healer from a foreign land with a heart of gold? Really? It just seems so Mary Sue-ish and hokey.

Whereas, the basic premise in the books, i.e. Robb was horny, Jeyne was there and willing, and he felt bad about it the next day, is much more believable, IMO, even though it's not that interesting. Meh. What I really enjoyed was watching the layers of treachery unfold, with the Westerlings knowing about what was to come and making damn well sure that Jeyne didn't get pregnant and stayed away from the Twins, because they were Lannister bannermen at the end of the day and trying to back the right winner.

As it stands, I suppose they'll have to settle for killing Talisa and her unborn child at the Red Wedding in order to drum up more emotional shock for the viewers.

CAN'T WAIT FOR RED WEDDING THOUGH. AWW, YEAH. I love the little bits of foreshadowing they threw in last episode, like Jaime Lannister telling Roose Bolton to say he sent his regards.

I think she is a spy and so may also actually be a Westerling. I agree, however, that the book plot was more believable.

 

[011235813]

I think she is a spy and so may also actually be a Westerling. I agree, however, that the book plot was more believable.

I suppose she would be marginally more tolerable if she ended up being a spy after all. She's been SO BLAND so far.

However, doing it that way would make Robb look like a complete idiot and reduce the impact of his gory end, so I don't know.

 

[violet_crown]

I saw a pretty interesting comment on a review site that I read, which made the case that Jamie Lannister is responsible for pretty much every bad thing that happens in the series. I'll repost for your viewing pleasure:

I made a post on this below, but... just keep in mind that when you root for Jaime, you're rooting for the guy who caused literally every bad thing that's ever happened on this show....

It wasn't just Jaime pushing Bran out the window; it was Jaime fucking his sister and fathering children with her. Jaime tried to kill Bran to keep his sister-fucking a secret. Bran's attempted assassination was presumably done for the same reasons, and it was that which caused Catelyn to kidnap Tyrion (the assassin, who was assassinating to cover up Jaime's sister-fucking, used Tyrion's dagger). Littlefinger did his manipulations to keep Joffrey on the throne, which would never have been needed if Joffrey was actually Robert's real son (i.e., if Jaime had never fucked his sister).

Cersei killed Robert to get Joffrey on the throne before people figured out that Joffrey wasn't Robert's son, which, again, wouldn't have been necessary if Jaime had never fucked his sister, and if Joffrey was actually Robert's son.

Jaime isn't responsible for Khal Drogo dying, but if Jaime hadn't killed the Mad King (no matter how noble his reasons), Dany wouldn't have left Westeros in the first place.

Just an interesting line of thought to me.

 

[Nicodemus]

Not a very compelling case there. It not only shows misandry (look at the phrasing 'fucking his sister', as if she were a mere victim of his sexual might and not the queen of the realm) and ignorance of things yet to be revealed; it also misses the real point in all of this: it is not one man's actions that make history but the concert of conflicting interests put to action that produce the story. Plans fail all the time.

If one wants to blame one of the main characters for all that has gone 'wrong', there is a better candidate. But why not simply blame Aerys? Or the butterfly?

 

[violet_crown]

Not a very compelling case there. It not only shows misandry (look at the phrasing 'fucking his sister', as if she were a mere victim of his sexual might and not the queen of the realm) and ignorance of things yet to be revealed; it also misses the real point in all of this: it is not one man's actions that make history but the concert of conflicting interests put to action that produce the story. Plans fail all the time.

If one wants to blame one of the main characters for all that has gone 'wrong', there is a better candidate. But why not simply blame Aerys? Or the butterfly?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Not a very compelling case there. It not only shows misandry (look at the phrasing 'fucking his sister', as if she were a mere victim of his sexual might and not the queen of the realm) and ignorance of things yet to be revealed; it also misses the real point in all of this: it is not one man's actions that make history but the concert of conflicting interests put to action that produce the story. Plans fail all the time.

If one wants to blame one of the main characters for all that has gone 'wrong', there is a better candidate. But why not simply blame Aerys? Or the butterfly?

Or Lancel, or Osmund Kettleblack, or Moon Boy for all you know.

 

[Little_Sticks]

I saw a pretty interesting comment on a review site that I read, which made the case that Jamie Lannister is responsible for pretty much every bad thing that happens in the series. I'll repost for your viewing pleasure:



Just an interesting line of thought to me.

Yeah, why not. He's already the "kingslayer". Blaming him for everything makes it much more comical.

But somewhat seriously, holding one person's action as accountable for the reactions of other people seems silly when they all make their own choices and play their own individualized parts. They are just as much responsible for their reactions as Jaime is for the action that influenced them, in my mind, fictional as it is.

 

[Animal]

Is it Jaime's fault that he's in love with his sister?

(That is a philosophical question, I'd say...)

 

[Riva]

Someone help me type Tywin lennisters etype please? Is he a 8, 1 or a 5w4 who is highly intergrated towards 8?

I think we could easily type him as an tj. Could take a step forward and type him as an ntj but lets not concentrate on his mbti type for my sake.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION]
Tywin is a clear ENTJ 8w9, probably Sp/So (possibly So/Sp, but Sp/So seems more likely). despite how he may come across, he is actually a very principled man, which is probably why you thought 1 a strong possibility, but his principles are 8-ish rather than 1-ish. you see, he has little interest in justice or fairness. his view of reality is largely amoral and his principles are mostly geared toward looking out for "his people". as if he's saying "look out for yourself and look out for your own. nothing else matters".
he is not a 5 because he is clearly a gut type (notice the instinctual, paternal energy. 5s do not have this). his thinking is driven by pragmatism and power rather than the intellectually dominated and more timid thinking of a 5.

his 8 tendencies are clear in the clip below including
1) doing what needs to be done, whether or not it's "clean" or "honorable"
2) belief that fear must be instilled in others to command respect
3) belief that the world is an unfair, unjust place
4) looking out for "his people"
5) reference to predators (8s often use analogies relating to wild animals, particularly predators, which they view as similar to themselves)
6) a keen eye for weakness. he points out Jamie's immediately
7) a mindset of "survival above all" (which is especially true of Self Preservation 8s)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Tywin is a definite 8, no doubt about it. If he ever expresses interest in morals, it's because of how it makes the family look, and not for their own sake.

He's also a massive prick.

 

[Elfboy]

Tywin is a definite 8, no doubt about it. If he ever expresses interest in morals, it's because of how it makes the family look, and not for their own sake.
He's also a massive prick.

he's not a prick, he just has different priorities and is willing to do what needs to be done to satisfy those priorities. he lives in a dog eat dog world of constant warfare, betrayal and unpredictable death. he is ruthless in getting what is best for his family because they are the only people he believes he can trust and the only people he believes he can afford to care about. in a world like I just described, you really cannot afford to just go around caring about everyone the way people in modern first world countries can today.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

he's not a prick, he just has different priorities and is willing to do what needs to be done to satisfy those priorities. he lives in a dog eat dog world of constant warfare, betrayal and unpredictable death. he is ruthless in getting what is best for his family because they are the only people he believes he can trust and the only people he believes he can afford to care about. in a world like I just described, you really cannot afford to just go around caring about everyone the way people in modern first world countries can today.

The thing is though, is that he doesn't care about his family as people. He's a terrible father, and his kids are all fucked up because of it. He only cares about the legacy. He values the name and the image of his family. He doesn't value the people in it. It has fuck all to do with his family being the only people he can trust... he doesn't trust them! When he says he values his family, what he values is his family's power, and his family's image (don't know if that's Ni or Si). He doesn't value the people in it, not even Jaime, the golden child.

I'm also basing some of this on things that haven't happened yet in the show. I don't know if you've read the books, so it's possible your opinion may change.

I have a certain respect for him because he's intelligent, like all good TJ villains. I like him as a character, as a creation, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a prick.

 

[Hive]

he's not a prick, he just has different priorities and is willing to do what needs to be done to satisfy those priorities. he lives in a dog eat dog world of constant warfare, betrayal and unpredictable death. he is ruthless in getting what is best for his family because they are the only people he believes he can trust and the only people he believes he can afford to care about. in a world like I just described, you really cannot afford to just go around caring about everyone the way people in modern first world countries can today.

Actually, he's a fucking asshole. I don't know if you've read the books or not, so I'll just give some examples why he is in spoiler tags:

Mainly because of his treatment of Tyrion. Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, wasn't a whore at all like Jaime told him, but genuinly in love. However, Tywin forced Jaime to tell Tyrion she was paid to "make him a man", and then had all his guards raping her while Tyrion watched and when they were all done Tywin forced his son to do it as well. After the battle at Blackwater he hardly acknowledges Tyrion's contributions to the victory, treating him like the good-for-nothing imp responsible for his wife's death and stain upon the Lannister name he always saw him as. He also refuses to let Tyrion inherit Casterly Rock even though it's his by birthright. Sure, he handles his business like a boss and is both intelligent and cunning, but he really is a massive fucking prick.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=11809]unsung[/MENTION] [MENTION=4660]msg_v2[/MENTION]
...you win (though being a "massive" prick is an ironic insult, as a prick implies small )

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

[MENTION=11809]unsung[/MENTION] Yup.

And honestly, while he may have had some affection for Jaime and Cersei, he did a piss poor job at sharing it. It's telling that neither Jaime or Cersei seem especially broken up about his death. Probably, if he had been a better father, they wouldn't have fucked each other. Also, after laying into Tyrion for spending time with whores, he's apparently not adverse to enjoying their company himself. He deserves what happens to him.

 

[Hive]

[MENTION=4660]msg_v2[/MENTION]

I found his fate kinda comical because of the demeaning nature of it. I agree that he deserved it. His death satisfied me more than Joffrey's (but not nearly as much as Lysa Arryn's... Holy shit, that's the most enjoyable death scene in the entire series so far).

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Finally we get to see Sam's moment of heroism. I was worried they weren't going to include it.